So I just watched Cavaliers 2000 again

[WOOHOO]

Being able to cover the COMPLETE range of dynamics should be a sought after trait of every drum corps.

Most corps do it at the expense of tone quality, which defies the basics of any brass playing.

[BozzlyB]

When did drum corps fall under the auspices of the brass quartet symphonic rules and regulations of the world tone quality police. I want to see bloody lips flapping out of the end of horns. There is no way you can tell me that the difference in tone quality between Cavies and Crowns line is so staggering as to make MF impacts of the Cavies preferrable.

[Geneva]

This is if you can here 50% of their show over that amped pit. Everyone plays so dark anymore that there basically no overtones going on anymore. Trumpet lines sound puny. Scratch the Bb trumpets and get some D trumpets. You know what is funny is that some people here probably have never played in a major symphonic orchestra. I have never played so loud in my life (even in PR) as I did there trying to balance 100+ string instruments.

The grand experiment is over and the G bugles simply sound better on the field. Music without substantial dynamic contrast is silly; that used to be what set drum corps apart. Don't believe me? Why do some corps have to now tell people what their show is about rather than letting the art speak for itself?

Well put, my man. I agree!

[eightyonepointthree]

Being able to cover the COMPLETE range of dynamics should be a sought after trait of every drum corps.

This is true....and The Cavaliers can play soft with control better than anyone!

They play big when they need to, they just don't do it ALL THE TIME like some corps do. I am told that they "pick their moments" to play big, but the rest is control and quality, something VERY difficult to do.

Cavaliers have played this way since 2001....when is this subject going to be retired? I don't think they are going to change any time soon. Why change? It works! There is NO judge that is going to say that they don't want to hear that quality any more.

[BozzlyB]

This is true....and The Cavaliers can play soft with control better than anyone!

They play big when they need to, they just don't do it ALL THE TIME like some corps do. I am told that they "pick their moments" to play big, but the rest is control and quality, something VERY difficult to do.

Cavaliers have played this way since 2001....when is this subject going to be retired? I don't think they are going to change any time soon. Why change? It works! There is NO judge that is going to say that they don't want to hear that quality any more.

Cavies haven't had a FFF impact since 04. They simply don't play "big" anymore, hence the numerous threads over the past few years questioning why they sound like a 50 man hornline.

[wdlover]

The Cavaliers do what I wish everyone in DCI would do.... Put the education of the kids in the hornline ahead of all other priorities. Why would you want to teach a non-professional player (which is anyone old enough to still be marching drum corps) to play so loud that it hurts them physically. Also why would you want to tell a kid to play so loud that they have no awareness of the sounds coming out of their instruments, good or bad. The best ensembles I've ever heard have their kids play their horns characteristically and then match the other characteristic sounds in the ensemble.

It's also a fact that the only reason you hear loud playing as "quality sound" is because it's noise. The noise covers tuning and tone issues because all it is is noise. Now listen to the Cavaliers and you don't hear noise but you hear clarity. Once that clarity is refined the sound is unmatched.

If you ask some of the other top drum corps out there... Blue Devils, Vanguard, Bluecoats, Madison, they're aspiring towards a more educational experience for the members of their hornlines. I use those examples because the fine people teaching those hornlines all have connections with the Cavaliers approach to playing and the idea that teaching a kid how to play their horn correctly is the most efficient method of teaching brass.

And for all of you talking about orchestral players playing that loud... NEWS FLASH: It took those professionals 30 years of correct, characteristic playing to understand how to achieve volume like that while maintaining a quality of sound.

For the record: I do hear quite a significant difference between Crown and Cavaliers. But then again I have very trained ears.

[I play the baritone good]

The Cavaliers do what I wish everyone in DCI would do.... Put the education of the kids in the hornline ahead of all other priorities. Why would you want to teach a non-professional player (which is anyone old enough to still be marching drum corps) to play so loud that it hurts them physically. Also why would you want to tell a kid to play so loud that they have no awareness of the sounds coming out of their instruments, good or bad. The best ensembles I've ever heard have their kids play their horns characteristically and then match the other characteristic sounds in the ensemble.

It's also a fact that the only reason you hear loud playing as "quality sound" is because it's noise. The noise covers tuning and tone issues because all it is is noise. Now listen to the Cavaliers and you don't hear noise but you hear clarity. Once that clarity is refined the sound is unmatched.

If you ask some of the other top drum corps out there... Blue Devils, Vanguard, Bluecoats, Madison, they're aspiring towards a more educational experience for the members of their hornlines. I use those examples because the fine people teaching those hornlines all have connections with the Cavaliers approach to playing and the idea that teaching a kid how to play their horn correctly is the most efficient method of teaching brass.

And for all of you talking about orchestral players playing that loud... NEWS FLASH: It took those professionals 30 years of correct, characteristic playing to understand how to achieve volume like that while maintaining a quality of sound.

For the record: I do hear quite a significant difference between Crown and Cavaliers. But then again I have very trained ears.

Okie dokie... you lost me at BD having a connection to the Cavaliers playing approach. That's just silly. BD's brass technique is nothing like Cavaliers. It is more similar to Cadets (Gino was a blue devil himself and was on brass staff there for several years before taking on a hornline of his own).

I agree on most of your points. However I disagree that all loud playing is noise. That is where all you pro-Cavalier brass guys are just dead wrong. MOST of it is noise, but when taught correctly you CAN play loud and sound good. Look at Cadets. Look at BD. Look at Phantom (although from time to time they will have stick outs). Stand in front of a BD brass warmup and they will rip your face off. And they will do it with a great sound. Can they play as soft as Cavaliers? No way. That's why they design their shows the way they do. They highlight their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Cavaliers do the exact same thing, they just have some really great OTHER strengths to help them out (drill). I love seeing BD go up against Cavaliers... they are night and day in terms of volume yet they both sound great. Difference is, Cavaliers have many more soft playing sections in their show. Year after year, this is a guarantee. But guess what? PLAYING SOFT IS F'N BORING. That's why all ballads start soft and end big. It's nice to hear some softer music playing, but it still needs to end big so people don't fall asleep.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Cavaliers fan. I marched in a prominent high school band that tried to emulate them completely, right down to the music warm-ups. And that was fun. We played with great sounds, good for us. I went to march drum corps because I wanted to play LOUD. I like watching drum corps now because it is LOUD. I still like watching Cavalier shows because they are "cool", but they aren't loud anymore so I just can't love them the way I love BD or Phantom. Standing in front of either of those hornlines' warm-up arc still brings tears to my eyes every time. It is loud as hell but still sounds beautiful. This IS possible to achieve.

Edited July 6, 2008 by I play the baritone good

[HockeyDad]

Cavies haven't had a FFF impact since 04. They simply don't play "big" anymore, hence the numerous threads over the past few years questioning why they sound like a 50 man hornline.

Worry not. Next year they'll be able to amplify the hornline. Problem solved.

[SCVsopAaron]

They can play however the hell they want, buddy

Don't feed trolls, people.

[BozzlyB]

Why would you want to teach a non-professional player (which is anyone old enough to still be marching drum corps) to play so loud that it hurts them physically. Also why would you want to tell a kid to play so loud that they have no awareness of the sounds coming out of their instruments, good or bad.

If you think these are instructional techniques used by ANY of the corps today you are completely out of touch with the activity. I suggest you spend some quality time observing today’s instructors do their job before making such a ridiculous statement. If you are referring to my "I want to see bloody lips hanging out the end of their horns" statement, it was purely metaphorical. My point was that I want to be (and usually am) blown away by a wall of sound. The "highly trained" brass crowd is really becoming a bit tiresome with their constantly holier than thou attitude towards drum corps, so let me present you with a question that maybe you can give a little dissertation on. Why should it be assumed that brass playing technique be the same in all venues, for all styles of music? Is a cheek puffing, blat sounding trombonist in a New Orleans jazz club not completely justified in his approach to the instrument? Would you approach him after a show and criticize him for his lack of attention to "proper" technique? The same applies to drum corps, it is an outdoor activity that relies HEAVILY on the GE created by the corps to literally move the audience, both emotionally and from their seats to their feet. Loud is not better than soft, but it is equally as necessary and the absence of either is problematic in a drum corps show.