Hornlines: How much is too much?

[elmhurstmusiced]

People, it's simple. If a person is making a sound that is uncharacteristic of the instrument, regardless of dynamic or range, then it's not good.

If a mellophone stops sounding like a mellophone, it's BAD. Etc., etc.

[salad315]

just b/c they tune one person, doesn't mean all the players are on the same mark. When I used the mark system, one player was tuned, and reported back to the subsection which mark he/she was at. After a little while, you get use to how you play compared to how the person being tuned plays. So if the person being tuned is at 5 marks, and you know you are generally 2 marks further out than them, you go to 7. You can get the instruments really close very quickly when everyone knows their relative tuning slide positions to the person being tuned. Then, you do fine tuning with your ears.

It's also easier to play in tune at MF than at RFL.

This is true. Not that you mention it, I remember that part as well.

[mellodramatic]

Loudness also comes from consistency of tone quality player to player.

[Leland]

People, it's simple. If a person is making a sound that is uncharacteristic of the instrument, regardless of dynamic or range, then it's not good.

If a mellophone stops sounding like a mellophone, it's BAD. Etc., etc.

The trouble with that is, what's "uncharacteristic"?

I can pull out recordings of sounds that people would label "uncharacteristic", such as Tommy Johnson & Roger Bobo blasting the snot out of Mars and Uranus with the LA Phil (on what was, IMO, an over-engineered recording). Those are two of the very small handful of on-call LA studio tubists, having been in more movie and TV soundtracks than any of us can realize, using a blatty, "uncharacteristic" sound.

However, it fit the style and intent of both the music and how the rest of the ensemble was approaching it.

Part of what makes brass so much more interesting than strings or woodwinds is that brasses can change attitude and color. You tell string players to play FFF, and they just sound like strings playing louder; woodwinds have a little larger range of expression, but not much.

Brasses, however, can play louder AND softer than woodwinds, with a purer blend than strings, and more in tune than an equal-tempered pipe organ at any dynamic level. That's why drum corps is so friggin' cool. It's why orchestral composers save the cool stuff for the brasses, leaving the strings & reeds to do melodic introductions or backup for vocalists.

Loudness also comes from consistency of tone quality player to player.

That's blend, not loudness -- but still a key characteristic of a good line. It makes every dynamic sound better.

[Slow Adam]

Roger Bobo blasting the snot out of Uranus

[Ryan H. Turner]

So...I've asked this before and I sincerely don't remember the answer...

There's a difference between "loud" in tune, versus "loud" by decibals, right?? Which SOUNDS louder?

A jet engine, or an "in tune" Cessna?

Edited September 4, 2008 by Ryan H. Turner

[Bruckner8]

So...I've asked this before and I sincerely don't remember the answer...

There's a difference between "loud" in tune, versus "loud" by decibals, right?? Which SOUNDS louder?

A jet engine, an intune Cessna?

Volume--as measured by a decibel meter--is totally different than "perceived loudness,: which is measured by human hearing.

It's entirely possible for 100 people to agree that sound source A is "louder" than sound source B, yet the decibel meter reads the opposite. I claim it happens all the time in drum corps, in fact.

There are times when I'm listening to pipe organs (live), that I think to myself "I bet the decibel meter would register this organ as louder cuz of pipes XYZ, but the spectrum on this other organ is so diverse (or the acoustic is so much better), it sounds louder to me."

Maybe DCP Poster "audiodb" could chime in on this.

[mn trumpter guy]

Guys, this tuning thing is WAY more complex than some are making it out to be. For one, every single person's oral chamber is shaped differently, so different people will play different pitches on the exact same horn. Also, tuning is all about having a musical ear. For instance, in a major triad, for the third to really be in tune, it must be extremely flat... like 17 cents or so (can't remember the exact amount). Just because one can play a unison in tune, that means nothing about actually playing with good intonation.

Firstly, that is not the only way to tune a chord. By that way of thinking, any organ or piano work would be 'out of tune' simply because a piano and organ cannot adjust the scale degrees of a chord to be 'in tune' (although some pianists apparently have the piano tuned with certain scale degrees in certain ways).

Secondly, that is why a musical ear is important, as well as knowing what kind of 'in tune' you are going for.

Thirdly, there is a difference between inTONation and inTUNation. You meant to say inTUNation. HOWEVER, for something to truly be in TUNE, it must first be in TONE- the tone qualities have to be close at least, or else it will sound out of tune. Trust me- huge issue with trumpets.

BUT you are correct about the oral cavity being different person to person, and a musical ear being important.

[Tez]

Firstly, that is not the only way to tune a chord. By that way of thinking, any organ or piano work would be 'out of tune' simply because a piano and organ cannot adjust the scale degrees of a chord to be 'in tune' (although some pianists apparently have the piano tuned with certain scale degrees in certain ways).

Secondly, that is why a musical ear is important, as well as knowing what kind of 'in tune' you are going for.

Thirdly, there is a difference between inTONation and inTUNation. You meant to say inTUNation. HOWEVER, for something to truly be in TUNE, it must first be in TONE- the tone qualities have to be close at least, or else it will sound out of tune. Trust me- huge issue with trumpets.

BUT you are correct about the oral cavity being different person to person, and a musical ear being important.

A piano using even-tempered tuning is not really perfectcly in tune when playing a major or minor triad. If you compared the sound we are used to hearing to a truly "in tune" chord on a piano, you would easily hear the difference.

[JayM]

Thirdly, there is a difference between inTONation and inTUNation. You meant to say inTUNation. HOWEVER, for something to truly be in TUNE, it must first be in TONE- the tone qualities have to be close at least, or else it will sound out of tune. Trust me- huge issue with trumpets.

I realize you're probably just doing this to make a point, but intunation is not a word. Intonation = accuracy of pitch.

Matching pitch is easy. If you get a small group of capable musicians together, odds are you can get them to play an in-tune concert F together with relative ease. Matching tone quality, however, takes quite a bit of work (and time).