Option or Necessity

[CanadianDirector]

I would like to clarify, I was there, I heard it said, I was shocked, however to prove the point maybe a little clearer, I will tel a little story..........

A judge who judged us (I will use his name because I respect him and his approach) always gave us appropriate constructive criticism, including our equipment, but also gave the drum line the apropriate score for the notes played, how well they were played, the technique used, our use of dynamics, tempo control, the players understanding of the pieces being performed etc..... was Charlie Poole.....he made the comment that in the future if we were to change the type of drum we were using, we might obtain a more mature sound........however he always gave fair and appropriate scores based on the criteria on the sheets, on the two other cases, those judges flat out did not. I will say that in all my years of teaching bands and corps I never had heard anything like that before or since, I think the actual proof, like when a comment is made by an adjudicator is rare, however, at some point it does become put up or go home. It may take years it may take only a season, but it happens, personally, I have found that most judges will have a way to tell the staff what they believe will improve the score or product (referring specifically to equipment) in a way much like what Charlie did, without belittling the members because of budget cuts. I know the reasons we did not get the drums we wanted that year, at the top of the list was there were several local members (almost a dozen I recall) out of 80 members that if we had they would not have had the chance to experience drum corps as they did not have the funds. The only positive that came out of the two judges who chose to score us on those nights the way they did, was it put a fire in the eyes of some young performers, to leave no doubt they deserved the scores they got the rest of the season.

[Jeff Ream]

No, he doesn't...your turn.

nah i had enough headaches with political double speak today

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I would like to clarify, I was there, I heard it said, I was shocked, however to prove the point maybe a little clearer, I will tel a little story..........

A judge who judged us (I will use his name because I respect him and his approach) always gave us appropriate constructive criticism, including our equipment, but also gave the drum line the apropriate score for the notes played, how well they were played, the technique used, our use of dynamics, tempo control, the players understanding of the pieces being performed etc..... was Charlie Poole.....he made the comment that in the future if we were to change the type of drum we were using, we might obtain a more mature sound........however he always gave fair and appropriate scores based on the criteria on the sheets, on the two other cases, those judges flat out did not. I will say that in all my years of teaching bands and corps I never had heard anything like that before or since, I think the actual proof, like when a comment is made by an adjudicator is rare, however, at some point it does become put up or go home. It may take years it may take only a season, but it happens, personally, I have found that most judges will have a way to tell the staff what they believe will improve the score or product (referring specifically to equipment) in a way much like what Charlie did, without belittling the members because of budget cuts. I know the reasons we did not get the drums we wanted that year, at the top of the list was there were several local members (almost a dozen I recall) out of 80 members that if we had they would not have had the chance to experience drum corps as they did not have the funds. The only positive that came out of the two judges who chose to score us on those nights the way they did, was it put a fire in the eyes of some young performers, to leave no doubt they deserved the scores they got the rest of the season.

Charlie Poole was with 2-7 when I was there. I have the highest respect for him. He is a class act, always has been, and was happy when I heard he was judging. I hope that other judges note the proper way to judge through Charlie's example. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Judges, judge the performance, not the equipment.

For judges to punish corps who try to reduce costs to allow more kids to march is asinine.

[MikeD]

I would like to clarify, I was there, I heard it said, I was shocked, however to prove the point maybe a little clearer, I will tel a little story..........

A judge who judged us (I will use his name because I respect him and his approach) always gave us appropriate constructive criticism, including our equipment, but also gave the drum line the apropriate score for the notes played, how well they were played, the technique used, our use of dynamics, tempo control, the players understanding of the pieces being performed etc..... was Charlie Poole.....he made the comment that in the future if we were to change the type of drum we were using, we might obtain a more mature sound........however he always gave fair and appropriate scores based on the criteria on the sheets, on the two other cases, those judges flat out did not. I will say that in all my years of teaching bands and corps I never had heard anything like that before or since, I think the actual proof, like when a comment is made by an adjudicator is rare, however, at some point it does become put up or go home. It may take years it may take only a season, but it happens, personally, I have found that most judges will have a way to tell the staff what they believe will improve the score or product (referring specifically to equipment) in a way much like what Charlie did, without belittling the members because of budget cuts. I know the reasons we did not get the drums we wanted that year, at the top of the list was there were several local members (almost a dozen I recall) out of 80 members that if we had they would not have had the chance to experience drum corps as they did not have the funds. The only positive that came out of the two judges who chose to score us on those nights the way they did, was it put a fire in the eyes of some young performers, to leave no doubt they deserved the scores they got the rest of the season.

Reading the above...it seems you got inappropriate comments and low scores you did not like from the judges at one show. That happens. It has happend to me this year with the band I arrange for and teach. It stinks when it happens. Charlie's comments were 100% appropriate, IMO, while the others were not. Absolutely. As you say, most judges use the approach Charlie took, which is a good thing.

One judge last season actually made a negative comment about the logos on our bass drum heads...we had three with Evans heads and one with Yamaha. No comment on the sound or performance...just a comment about the logos.

The same guy this year told us on his tape that we should not bother having a battery; the kids should all be placed in the pit, as they were just so bad. Utterly inappropriate comments. I actually sent that tape to the circuit for review (of course, nothing happened...the guy judged us again a few weeks later).

Bottom line to me...there are good and bad judges. Sometimes even good judges make bad decisions on the spot. Doesn't meant that DCI as an organization is doing something wrong. As you said, most of the time you got the feedback as you should.

[MikeD]

Charlie Poole was with 2-7 when I was there. I have the highest respect for him. He is a class act, always has been, and was happy when I heard he was judging. I hope that other judges note the proper way to judge through Charlie's example. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Judges, judge the performance, not the equipment.

For judges to punish corps who try to reduce costs to allow more kids to march is asinine.

Luckily he is able to say this: "I will say that in all my years of teaching bands and corps I never had heard anything like that before or since...". Apparently other judges for the most part do things the right way.

However, regarding your second comment about the equipment...sometimes poor equipment can have an impact on the performance/sound, so it can be "in scope" to make appropriate comments, as Charlie did. Sometimes you just can't make chicken salad out of chicken ####.

[audiodb]

Has Donny said anything in this thread where you asked for people to relate their first-hand stories? That's all I am saying.

So it's true - you refused to acknowledge Donny Allen simply because his first-hand account was posted in a different DCP thread. Talk about "semantics"....

[MikeD]

So it's true - you refused to acknowledge Donny Allen simply because his first-hand account was posted in a different DCP thread. Talk about "semantics"....

No...because it's not part of what Dave was asking for in this thread. Please read what I wrote about Donny's experience. Where have I written that I discount what he wrote?

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Reading the above...it seems you got inappropriate comments and low scores you did not like from the judges at one show. That happens. It has happend to me this year with the band I arrange for and teach. It stinks when it happens. Charlie's comments were 100% appropriate, IMO, while the others were not. Absolutely. As you say, most judges use the approach Charlie took, which is a good thing.

Actually, he said it happened twice. Still not a conspiracy. When judges make comments like the judging community doesn't want to hear that sound, I get leery.

One judge last season actually made a negative comment about the logos on our bass drum heads...we had three with Evans heads and one with Yamaha. No comment on the sound or performance...just a comment about the logos.

The same guy this year told us on his tape that we should not bother having a battery; the kids should all be placed in the pit, as they were just so bad. Utterly inappropriate comments. I actually sent that tape to the circuit for review (of course, nothing happened...the guy judged us again a few weeks later).

Sorry to hear that. The judge should be immediately fired, IMO.

Bottom line to me...there are good and bad judges. Sometimes even good judges make bad decisions on the spot. Doesn't meant that DCI as an organization is doing something wrong. As you said, most of the time you got the feedback as you should.

I agree that I don't think that it is out of line for a judge to say using such and such equipment may make it easier for your members and produce a better sound, but comments made to Donny were said by several judges, not one or two, and do not take into any account the performance of the members. This is where I become more cynical about the situation.

[glory]

First of all, the judges did not quantify their statement, they said, black and white, that they would finish last in brass, no matter what

Come on. We don’t know whether the judges qualified their statement. We don’t know the context in which it was stated. And we surely don’t know what was their intent in saying so.

There are a couple of issues here – and neither of them is G vs. Bb.

First, there is the matter of reliability of the statement itself. No offense to Donny, whom I know (remember Bob Saget, Donny?), but eyewitness testimony often is the least reliable of all. As a reporter, I covered courts for years and came to agree with what police, attorneys and judges already knew: eyewitness testimony can’t be trusted not because people lie (though they do) but because our memories seldom are as objective as we might wish.

Donny remembers what he remembers. But what he remembers may or may not be what was actually said. More important, it might not be what was intended.

Let me take the onus off Donny and put it on myself. I often try to deflect my wife’s criticism with this statement:

I’m not a total idiot. I’m a regular idiot.

Now, if you quoted me as saying “I’m a regular idiot” you would quote me accurately. But you would have to agree, that you’d be misstating my intent which wasn’t to emphasize my idiocy but rather to emphasize that my idiocy is routine.

As regards Pioneer, some want to interpret that statement in the narrowest possible way. In the first place, the statement in question is likely just paraphrase and not a quote at all. Second, there no context for the statement from which to draw meaningful conclusions about intent.

More important, there is no evidence that such sentiments have been offered by judges about other corps. We have yet to hear that judges were harping on other G corps during the more transitional years. If we are to believe that such a bias exists against G, isn’t it reasonable to think judges would have been more aggressive about other corps and not just this one?

In fact, what we have in this thread are just two first-hand instances of equipment entering the discussion at all. One (Pioneer brass) is offered by proxy (that is, the first-hand witness hasn’t joined the discussion to elaborate or explain). The other (Canadian drums) has admitted the sentiment in question was isolated.

Whether judges should properly judge equipment is an interesting discussion to have. So far though, we have had precious little in the way of evidence to suggest that judges are.

HH

[glory]

…on the two other cases, those judges flat out did not. I will say that in all my years of teaching bands and corps I never had heard anything like that before or since…

Never heard ANYTHING like that BEFORE or SINCE.

HH