tell me if I'm wrong and why

[kansasDC]

Not my experience at all in the scholastic world. The kids who participate in band programs I have come into contact with as a director, arranger, staff person, judge, whatever...these kids are just as hard working...actually more so since they are competing...than the band kids of my era.

Out side of music, a LOT of the kids I see in HS are working and working as hard as they can to succeed in academics and sports and other extracurricular activities. This idea that modern kids are lazy is just plain bogus, IMO.

I agree with Mike. The kids my son associates with are busier than anyone I ever marched with. Besides corps and band, they're into many sports, clubs, jobs, academic teams, etc., etc. Blanket statements about "today's kids" are just as bad as blanket statements about different races, religions, etc.

[It's Godzilla!]

Today's kid seems pretty darn lazy, at least in the NEPA high schools. Your post reminded me of South Park season 12 episode Guitar Queer-O. The boys were playing Guitar Hero, Kansas' Carry On My Wayward Son, and diggin' it. When Randy pulled out his electric guitar and played the song for the boys, the response was 'gay'. I find it ridiculous that todays kids think playing a video game guitar is 'cool' but won't even consider learning how to play a real guitar or even pick up a snare or mellophone and learn to play it. Truly sad and pathetic...

If you haven't seen the episode of South Park I referenced I suggest checking it out. All episodes can be streamed for free at www.southparkstudios.com

So to keep this straight in my head, you're referencing animated characters from some extremely warped and satirical writers (You know, the ones who made puppet porn...) on a show that is known for taking up a fight with anyone and anything for cheap laughs... And you're using this as evidence of the general population of children. Is that about right?

Kids have always been lazy. Barring the usual exceptional people, I really don't understand how anyone can think otherwise...

[Tom Brace]

For starters, I don't think that is what TSRTS13 was saying. At least, I didn't read it that way.

It wouldn't happen if DCI wasn't changing the rules to add more of these costly items to the instrumentation menagerie.

Heh - no, DCI is not "responsible for poor corps management".

This is not the black/white issue you make it seem like. The problem of costs is multifaceted. Some of the activity's operating costs have risen in ways that the activity could not possibly have controlled or avoided (insurance). Other costs presented options to either avoid or control continual escalation. Equipment is an area where DCI has control - their rules and judging practices determine what equipment is required for competitive success. And DCI has made changes that continually raise the cost of playing the game.

You can always "blame management" for any corps failure, but that behavior is just denial of the real problem - drum corps is expensive. We've had a thousand different junior corps come and go, and only 45 are left. Were all the others poorly managed? 95% of management is bad? I don't think so. Bottom line is that drum corps is expensive. Makes no sense to make that problem worse.

required equipment = drums and horns. All else is optional...at the discretion of the drum corps. I have seen corps march without a guard. I have not seen one corps ever march without horns and at least one drum. I've been watching drum corps since 1968.

What corps CHOOSE to do is not and has never been required. Should corps get more equipment if it means getting better, getting more members, etc. Depends. It's a corps decision.

In 1997, the second place DCM Div. III corps had 5 horn players. Second Place.

Don't tell me about requirements for competition. It just isn't true. Corps make decisions...and they are judged on the decisions they make.

[Tom Brace]

Not my experience at all in the scholastic world. The kids who participate in band programs I have come into contact with as a director, arranger, staff person, judge, whatever...these kids are just as hard working...actually more so since they are competing...than the band kids of my era.

Out side of music, a LOT of the kids I see in HS are working and working as hard as they can to succeed in academics and sports and other extracurricular activities. This idea that modern kids are lazy is just plain bogus, IMO.

100% agreement...thanks for your perspective on this.

[Tom Brace]

The big battle over the centuries has seemingly been whether old style drum corps was better than new, and why are corps numbers declining. Here is my hypothesis: Older shows drill and music was much easier and was about the crowds entertainment. Todays shows are so difficult and complex, most kids burn out after one summer and crowds are left scratching their heads as to what it was they just saw. Don't you think then that the difficulty being what it is, causes kids to march less than they would have in the old days, because they aren't beat to death running and playing impossible pieces of music? Therefore the corps numbers decline and crowds decline due to the same decline in membership. Most crowds are made up of drum corps alumni and parents and family. If there are less and less of each, drum corps start disappearing. What does anyone think of this ?

and since you asked....

you are wrong.

[Puppet]

and since you asked....

you are wrong.

And since you answered ... it is possible to be right and wrong.

If they are pure teenagers (13 - 17) they tend to be - in my experience - diligent and hard working.

All those above that age are rarely either. Yes, they do the work but are basically hormone driven. The risk, reward thing: "If I'm the best in my section, the girls will like me better ..."

As to all the extra stuff (electronics, etc.) we went through it, too. Slide versus rotary / Introduction of Contra Bass, Tympani, Tuned Toms, Double Bass, Triples, Quads - as the wicked witch of the west said: "Oh! What a world!"

Oh! And did somebody mention something about "old" videos & DVD copies of "old" shows? Ha?! How many shows from the late sixties and early seventies are there available for those young, historically challenged, hormone driven youngsters who think holding drumsticks like hammers is the only way to go and are taught by people who marched BITD who won't even show them the old stuff or tell them why (probably because you can play louder) traditional stick handling is not the way to go these days - because who cares about style? - I just go the shows I can mostly close my eyes and listen. Like I used to do with my "OLD" Fleetwood recordings. Tomorrow will surely come and with it more change. C'est La Vie!

Puppet

[JamMan]

And since you answered ... it is possible to be right and wrong.

If they are pure teenagers (13 - 17) they tend to be - in my experience - diligent and hard working.

All those above that age are rarely either. Yes, they do the work but are basically hormone driven. The risk, reward thing: "If I'm the best in my section, the girls will like me better ..."

As to all the extra stuff (electronics, etc.) we went through it, too. Slide versus rotary / Introduction of Contra Bass, Tympani, Tuned Toms, Double Bass, Triples, Quads - as the wicked witch of the west said: "Oh! What a world!"

Oh! And did somebody mention something about "old" videos & DVD copies of "old" shows? Ha?! How many shows from the late sixties and early seventies are there available for those young, historically challenged, hormone driven youngsters who think holding drumsticks like hammers is the only way to go and are taught by people who marched BITD who won't even show them the old stuff or tell them why (probably because you can play louder) traditional stick handling is not the way to go these days - because who cares about style? - I just go the shows I can mostly close my eyes and listen. Like I used to do with my "OLD" Fleetwood recordings. Tomorrow will surely come and with it more change. C'est La Vie!

Puppet

So who died and made you GURU OF THE UNIVERSE? Now, where to begin...

"Pure teenagers"? You're saying high school-level kids and "pure" in the same sentence? Has it been that long? And anyone OLDER is "hormone-driven youngster"? Are you sure you didn't mix your age-groups up?

As for the "old" videos, have you ever heard of YouTube? Probably not, as it was banned from this site. Many corps offer free video clips of their roots on their websites, and they're viewed by many as inspiration to perform their best and keep the tradition alive.

And "holding sticks like hammers"? Those are only those with no training whatsoever (you know, the kids who don't march drum corps). If you want to start a big critique session, let's take a look at when drum corps were sponsored by local VFW's and churches and whatnot: Drummers were literally just pulled off the street and learned by watching veterans play. Does this sound like a great way to learn the intricacies of producing a good stroke and sound? Didn't think so. Also, traditional grip is not a "style", it's technique. It's not practical on a level surface. The drum must be tilted to utilize the technique. Otherwise, the hands produce two different sounds that take months to even out. Again, many high schools don't have traditional grip because it takes so long to master (awkward on a flat surface) and because no one's there to teach them.

I do agree that there will be change tomorrow (there is always change, you can't stop it). But when it happens, you can't go around berating groups of people because you're just not used to it.

[Shadow_7]

I think that todays kids have a greater opportunity to be lazy. And still be considered successful.

Thinking back 100 or so years where everybody was a farmer, or some related field. To today where you can make a living playing video games. Even be a TV star while playing video games. Or just make a living creating video games. Where pre 1980, very few people had so much as a computer in their home. And the other advances in the past 100 or so years, artificial light, phones, cars, flight, radio, tv, computers, internet, yada yada yada....

[Matt_S]

I think that todays kids have a greater opportunity to be lazy. And still be considered successful.

Thinking back 100 or so years where everybody was a farmer, or some related field. To today where you can make a living playing video games. Even be a TV star while playing video games. Or just make a living creating video games. Where pre 1980, very few people had so much as a computer in their home. And the other advances in the past 100 or so years, artificial light, phones, cars, flight, radio, tv, computers, internet, yada yada yada....

Yes, it's possible to make a living playing video games. But do you really think that those who do so are lazy???

Hundreds of thousands of kids play soccer in youth leagues, or play trumpet in their junior high band. But do you really think that the people who make a living in either activity are able to do so because they are lazy?

It's the same principle at work. A kid who plays video games haphazardly, out of sheer boredom and apathy, would be considered lazy - but he wouldn't make a living that way. The only people who make a living through video games are those who have dedicated thousands of hours to the craft, who know what it takes to produce a quality video game, and therefore bring marketable skills to the industry. That's not laziness at all, it's just the application of a solid work ethic toward a previously under-rewarded field of business.

[Shadow_7]

..... and therefore bring marketable skills to the industry. That's not laziness at all, it's just the application of a solid work ethic toward a previously under-rewarded field of business.

I suppose I could have said perceived laziness. Looking at my own work history... In college, I stood in a parking lot and yelled at people not to park there. I was in the Army Band and got paid to stand at attention or parade rest for at least 3 hours everyday. Granted not lazy in the fact that I was pulling 80 weeks, but every non-bandsmen thought we were lazy if only because our uniforms were cleaner / prettier than theirs. With all of the imposed consequences of their perceptions. i.e. must work M-F 8-5 even though most of our gigs exist outside of that time slot. To include most weekends and holidays.