Madison Scouts vs. CCrown

[It's Godzilla!]

How about we do an easier comparison? One with similarly ranked shows and track records and very different styles?

Cadets vs. Cavies? Blue Stars vs. BAC?

[NR_Ohiobando]

Yeah, but crown is diving all over the ground, and doin all these wierd poses and holding guys up in the air, and playing while laying on the ground, id say that about evens it up in my view.

Madison also does stuff like that, which I also didn't take into account. (though not to the extent of CCrown)

Both corps tend to do that stuff while not moving as well. (Besides, it's much easier to lift someone with 3 other people helping you out )

One could argue that a corps that has its members stop and start marching often is doing more work than a corps that is marching the entire time.

Physically, it is more work to stop/start than it is to march at a consistent pace.

This doesn't take into accounting direction changes, however.

True, the actual action of coming to a stop is hard depending on what you are doing before-hand, but you're still playing while standing still. My personal experience says it's much easier to play well once you've come to a stop. Your legs get a rest, and catching a breath is much easier. My experience says body movement is relatively easy to play during as well (though I haven't done the exact moves of either CCrown or Madison).

[NR_Ohiobando]

How about we do an easier comparison? One with similarly ranked shows and track records and very different styles?

Cadets vs. Cavies? Blue Stars vs. BAC?

If I have time the next few days I'll be doing Holy Name and Colts next (since they're both neck-and-neck with Madison and CCrown.

...

I have no life, I'll do it.

[fourouttheforty]

... catching a breath is much easier.

Yeah, if you're bailing out and not playing.

[gellio]

Weren't you one of the people predicting Madison's return to top 6 this year? Seriously, there are some DCP Madison alumni who heard Madison in the Winter, and then predicted a top 6 finish....were you one of those?

Actually, I predicted 8th or 9th, which isn't a stretch considering they were 12th the year before. What's your point? It's predictions. I mean really, so what? Who cares if someone predicted them to be top 6? Look up the definition of prediction please.

[gellio]

One could argue that a corps that has its members stop and start marching often is doing more work than a corps that is marching the entire time.

Physically, it is more work to stop/start than it is to march at a consistent pace.

This doesn't take into accounting direction changes, however.

Well it depends on what you are doing before you stop and what you will be doing after you stop, but by and large I disagree with this statement. It is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to play while standing still - you're not moving (no bouncing effect) and you're not worried about dressing forms and thinking of playing while marching.

[arno0940]

Well difficulty and demand do not equal good. I may get slaughtered for saying this, but Crown's show is exceptionally more well designed (musically and visually) than Madison's. I honestly have not been happy with anything I've seen from Madison since 2005. IMO, the uniforms have been an utter disaster 2006 and on, and the overall design of the shows has left me scratching my head wondering how these designers ever got work in the first place. Don't get me wrong, there are (a few) moments of Madison's show I like - there is some good design in there, but it's way too far and between - Crown is exceptional from start to finish.

Bring on the firing squad - I'm ready, but I am not going to lie about how I feel, and Madison is still going down the wrong path IMO.

Thank you for mentioning this! Design is much more than marching and music and how often they do each. I think during the 80's and 90's Madison developed a solid identity with their shows and became very successful. Within the last many years, they have dropped their identity and are "exploring" which sometimes works out well and other times doesn't. I think this year is one of the later.

[Steven69]

I’m trying to avoid posting on DCP this summer, but I figured this would be a nice piece of info for everyone. Someone did this last year too, so I thought it would be interesting to do it again

One of the things I noticed right away about Madison’s show this year is that they move and play A LOT, while maintaining very fast tempos. I decided to back up my claim with actual statistics and compare that against top scoring corps, in this case, CCrown as of 7/9/09

Note: The tempos are somewhat estimated; my metronome doesn’t have every single tempo on it, it goes up by chunks. Example: 172 to 176, 200 to 208 (no 201-207). I’d say the tempos are at most 3 clicks off what I say.

Also, when I say "tempo" I am dealing with how fast the feet are moving.

( * indicates playing while moving)

Scroll down to the bottom to see the full results

Madison Scouts: using the Denver FanNetwork Video from 7/11/09

(only dealing with tempos above 160 while moving)

Tempo = 190ish

:28 to :52 --- 24* seconds

:55-1:20 --- 25* seconds

1:28-1:34 --- 6* (etc.)

Tempo = 170ish

1:52-2:20 --- 28*

2:22-2:34 --- 12*

2:37-2:43 --- 6*

Tempo = 180ish

2:47-2:53 --- 6

3:05-3:09 --- 5

3:10-3:38 --- 28*

Tempo = 184+

3:40-3:47 --- 7

3:48-3:59 --- 11*

--

Tempo = 180ish

4:09-4:16 --- 7

4:19-24 --- 5

4:27-31 --- 4

4:31-4:42 --- 11*

4:45-49 --- 4

4:49-4:52 --- 3*

4:55-5:06 --- 11*

5:11-49 --- 39*

Tempo = 200ish

6:10-14 --- 4 (trumpet trio)

6:14-22 --- 8*

--

Tempo = 168ish

6:30-6:41 --- 11

Tempo = 160ish

6:41-7:34 --- 53* (includes ritardandos)

7:42-8:00 --- 18*

--

Tempo = 190ish

8:08-23 --- 15*

8:28-51 --- 23*

8:57-9:40 --- 43

9:41-50 --- 9*

Tempo =160ish

10:16-25 --- 9*

Tempo = 190ish

10:47-11:15 --- 28*

CCrown using the 6/9/09 Columbia FanNetwork video.

only dealing with tempos above 160 while moving

Tempo = 190ish

2:16-58 --- 42 seconds

3:01-39 --- 38 (play at halftime & normal time)*

3:45-4:14 --- 29*

Tempo = 176ish

6:57-7:24 --- 27 (only members who are halted play)

Tempo = 190ish

7:29-45 --- 16*

7:47-56 --- 9*

Tempo = 200ish+

8:00-12 --- 12

8:12-23 --- 11*]

8:24-33 --- 9*

Tempo = 160ish

9:31-34 --- 3*

Tempo = 170ish

11:08-18 --- 10

11:27-36 --- 9*

11:40-47 --- 7*

11:49-57 --- 8*

12:01-06 --- 5*

Tempo = 190ish

12:06-30 --- 24*

12:39-55 --- 16

Madison Scouts: using the Denver FanNetwork Video from 7/11/09

Time spent 160ish+ while moving: 464 seconds, about 7:44 of the show.

Time spent 160ish+ while moving and *playing: 367 seconds, about 6:07 of the show.

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 185 seconds, about 3:05 of the show

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 138 seconds, about 2:18 of the show

CCrown using the 6/9/09 Columbia FanNetwork video.

Time spent 160ish+ while moving: 275 seconds or 4:35

Time spent 160ish+ moving and *playing: 184 seconds or 3:04 seconds.

Time spent 190ish+ while moving: 206 seconds or 3:26

Time spent 190ish+ moving and *playing: 136 seconds or 2:16

(While not part of this info it's also notable that CCrown has several large sections of their show around Tempo=70-80, and stops to a halt almost every time a double tonguing section takes place.)

Interesting to say the least. I am not trying to say CCrown is a bunch of sissies. I am saying that Madison has a hell of a show on their hands, difficulty-wise. (this has very little to do with their visual GE program). I am also saying that you can design shows "more intelligently" and still have it be incredibly exciting for the audience.

Also: If Madison can clean up their act and get into Finals then more power to them, I just think the challenge is really big.

Can you do the same analysis for BD? I think it would be interesting to see how much time they spend standing and playing, sitting and playing, or one section marching while another section is playing plus what tempos they are using. I just thought it very interesting how very little marching and playing BD does this year after watching them in person in San Antinio. I wasn't impressed with them on Fan Network mainly cuz those ghastly yellow unis on the guard just kind of scream "I'm Dr. Seuss on qualudes!" but watching them in person...Wow, the show was even more boring than I thought. Most of the crowd wasn't entirely sure when to stand at the end until some BD fans stood up to let us know it was over, then we were like, "oh, ok...that was the closer..."

By the way, I just saw Madison's show for the first time this weekend and I really liked it. I'm still pulling for Crown, but I definitely liked Madison's show concept plus it was extremely entertaining.

[zig zig ZAG]

Some of the topics discussed (and as much as possible, proven) here relate to the "demand vs. execution" thread.

Yes, the 'smart design' (if it's smart, which it isn't in terms of art or achievement or innovation) approach that started at the beginning of this decade has had effects throgh the top25, to the detriment of the marching art form.

Donut shows = 'smart design'

But - the judges eat 'em up. Like Homer Simpson. Ummmm. Doooonuts.

I'm a brass player and have marched and the difference between playing tough music at a fast tempo without as many breaks is like lining up someone to run two miles against someone who has to run three or more, and giving them all 11 minutes to do it.

Generally, who's gonna win? So the 'smart design' people do what they do best, aim as low as possible to please the judges with sleight-of-hand stuff that seems hardish, but just ain't as hard.

Until we see judges actually reward demand equally with execution, as they do in the Olympics (in a host of sports), we're still gonna have to eat lots of donuts, and get fat and lazy doing it. Love those trans fats and sugar coating.

Period.

Edited July 20, 2009 by zig zig ZAG

[oldtimedrummer]

Some of the topics discussed (and as much as possible, proven) here relate to the "demand vs. execution" thread.

Yes, the 'smart design' (if it's smart, which it isn't in terms of art or achievement or innovation) approach that started at the beginning of this decade has had effects throgh the top25, to the detriment of the marching art form.

Donut shows = 'smart design'

But - the judges eat 'em up. Like Homer Simpson. Ummmm. Doooonuts.

I'm a brass player and have marched and the difference between playing tough music at a fast tempo without as many breaks is like lining up someone to run two miles against someone who has to run three or more, and giving them all 11 minutes to do it.

Generally, who's gonna win? So the 'smart design' people do what they do best, aim as low as possible to please the judges with sleight-of-hand stuff that seems hardish, but just ain't as hard.

Until we see judges actually reward demand equally with execution, as they do in the Olympics (in a host of sports), we're still gonna have to eat lots of donuts, and get fat and lazy doing it. Love those trans fats and sugar coating.

Period.

I totally disagree with the comments about aiming low to please the judges. Where did you come up with that one? This whole debate about demand vs execution has been argued and argued for years. The two cannot be viewed independently of one another and accurately reflect true achievement. Hence, the judging community uses Derived Achievement (a system developed in large part by George Oliverio) to arrive at an accurate rating and ranking. It's not an easy task, because there are many different approaches and not all judges fully apply the principles of Derived Achievement. But in general, I think the judges get it right far more often then they get it wrong. BTW, Smart design has been around a lot longer than a decade. It really started with "the total show concept" back in the early 70's with Santa Clara.