byline Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Oh, wait, Spirit won the guard caption in 1987. So there's another one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradrick Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 You're right I wasn't born in 87. However I have seen a video of it several times, saw SCV live this year and several times online too and just like SCV 09 better (and 87 as well but that's irrelevant.) I know it's not the same as seeing it live but even just based on fan network I like SCV better. *** DISCLAIMER: This comment is in no way meant to be taking a position on the OP's question of which one was "better". I'm staying out of that argument because I feel it is pointless to compare the two. *** ---------------- Abbevillekid26, Unfortunately, unless you have seen 87 Garfield from a High Camera angle video (which is very difficult to get your hands on, and impossible through DCI or the Fan Network) you are just not getting all the "info" you need to truly form an opinion of it. (And I would say this whether or not SCV did "Ballet for Martha" in 2009). This is not your fault. I know you are using the only option you have to evaluate that show. But you can't truly appreciate the visual masterpiece of Zingali's drill from the multi-cam mix. For that matter, anyone who tries to size-up 87 Garfield using only the multi-cam video is at a severe disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElSuarez Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Oh, yes, I forgot about Sky Ryders (Oops, sorry!), and yes, they had a great guard. So then I'd move Garfield to seventh place . . . which, as jpaul pointed out, is basically where they landed in the color guard caption. Does anyone have the actual guard placements for that year? They don't show up on the recap because, as jpaul noted, there was a guard caption score but it wasn't counted in the final score. (Which, IMO, is completely unfair. It's not like the guard was standing around doing nothing to contribute to the show. And for those who say GE, well, GE is a whole lot more than just the guard. Old argument. Anyway. . . .)Yes, I knew that there was not a guard -- or barely one -- in probably my least-favorite Garfield show ever (the 1986 "On the Waterfront" show), and so of course they were rebuilding the guard in '87, and that put them at a competitive disadvantage. But it is a competition, not a cakewalk, and so everybody has to deal with what came before and whatever consequences they may bring. I do admire the guard staff for making very smart choices that minimized the guard's weaknesses. And I admire the members of this guard who, I'm sure, came very, very far that season, and of course set the stage for the following year's "Third Symphony" show, which then led to the "Les Miz" show, which featured an exceptionally strong guard. Just another case of building on what came before! 1 Spirit 2 BD 3 Phantom 4 SCV 5 Madison 6 Cavies 7 Garfield 8 Bluecoats 9 Sky 10 VK 11 Star 12 Suncoast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCIpwnstesn00bs Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 1 Spirit2 BD 3 Phantom 4 SCV 5 Madison 6 Cavies 7 Garfield 8 Bluecoats 9 Sky 10 VK 11 Star 12 Suncoast if only they were that good this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCIpwnstesn00bs Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 and uh oh, scv has taken a slight lead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifer Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 *** DISCLAIMER: This comment is in no way meant to be taking a position on the OP's question of which one was "better". I'm staying out of that argument because I feel it is pointless to compare the two. ***---------------- Unfortunately, unless you have seen 87 Garfield from a High Camera angle video (which is very difficult to get your hands on, and impossible through DCI or the Fan Network) you are just not getting all the "info" you need to truly form an opinion of it. (And I would say this whether or not SCV did "Ballet for Martha" in 2009). This is not your fault. I know you are using the only option you have to evaluate that show. But you can't truly appreciate the visual masterpiece of Zingali's drill from the multi-cam mix. For that matter, anyone who tries to size-up 87 Garfield using only the multi-cam video is at a severe disadvantage. Excellent point. It would be interesting to see the demographics of the voters here to see how many can say they are comparing the two live performances and where that vote comes in versus those who are comparing the live SCV performance to a poor quality video of Garfield. I'd expect to see Garfield win big in the live vs live vote and SCV win in the live versus video vote. My own opinion is that very few shows before or after can match the beauty and emotion that was contained in Garfield's 87 show (like most shows on video, it can't compare to the feeling you got watching this masterpiece performed live). In adddition, watching "in that moment of time" in 87, you could not help but realize that you were watching history in the making and know that many corps/shows would take ideas/concepts from this show for the positive advancement of the activity. Whereas SCV's version was beautiful but not really unique or activity changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byline Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) Abbevillekid26,Unfortunately, unless you have seen 87 Garfield from a High Camera angle video (which is very difficult to get your hands on, and impossible through DCI or the Fan Network) you are just not getting all the "info" you need to truly form an opinion of it. (And I would say this whether or not SCV did "Ballet for Martha" in 2009). This is not your fault. I know you are using the only option you have to evaluate that show. But you can't truly appreciate the visual masterpiece of Zingali's drill from the multi-cam mix. For that matter, anyone who tries to size-up 87 Garfield using only the multi-cam video is at a severe disadvantage. This is off-topic, but I agree, and would also add that the same is true for Santa Clara '87. Basically anyone trying to compare those two shows (as opposed to the original question of Santa Clara this year, Garfield that year) really needs to watch both shows from the high-cam angle. I, too, am fortunate to have seen both with that version (semi-finals, when you can actually hear the Garfield soprano soloist's final note), and love them both all the more for it. The thing I find so annoying about the closeups of Santa Clara is that those costumes and props were not meant to be seen up close, but the camera crew just had to focus in on them. Meanwhile, we're missing all this amazing visual stuff that's happening (drum line coming out of the red tent, etc.). I just don't think you can sufficiently appreciate either show unless you really see what they were doing. Anyway, I digress. . . . 1 Spirit2 BD 3 Phantom 4 SCV 5 Madison 6 Cavies 7 Garfield 8 Bluecoats 9 Sky 10 VK 11 Star 12 Suncoast Great, thank you! I agree with this guard-placement order. Would guard scores added into the total score have made a difference in who won that year? I'm guessing the answer is yes. Edited August 27, 2009 by byline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Anyway, I digress. . . .Great, thank you! I agree with this guard-placement order. Would guard scores added into the total score have made a difference in who won that year? I'm guessing the answer is yes. I think that really depends on what other caption you would take points away from in order for the guard score to be added in. If it were percussion, then maybe. If it were brass, no. If it were field visual, no. If it were GE, I think that hurts SCV more than it does Garfield. If it were 10 pts for Visual GE and 5 pts for guard ...... that puts Garfield at a 9.3 and SCV at 9.7 which is .4 difference. If Garfield got a 4.2 and SCV got a 4.5 = a TIE. Without knowing the actual scores, it's impossible to say. All that said, I thought Guard was a subcaption of Visual Performance???????? Am I totally wrong there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumcorpsfan471 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) You know I am actually a little surprised by this polls' results. Very interesting stuff! Edited August 27, 2009 by Drumcorpsfan471 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byline Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I think that really depends on what other caption you would take points away from in order for the guard score to be added in.If it were percussion, then maybe. If it were brass, no. If it were field visual, no. If it were GE, I think that hurts SCV more than it does Garfield. If it were 10 pts for Visual GE and 5 pts for guard ...... that puts Garfield at a 9.3 and SCV at 9.7 which is .4 difference. If Garfield got a 4.2 and SCV got a 4.5 = a TIE. Without knowing the actual scores, it's impossible to say. Good points. I posted before I really thought about it. All that said, I thought Guard was a subcaption of Visual Performance???????? Am I totally wrong there? You know, the guard caption has changed so much over the years that I've had a hard time keeping up. Back in my day, the guard was given a score as a subcaption of GE, but I'm not sure how it was being done in '87. Here's what our recap looked like in '78 (my handwritten notes from the recap sheet): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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