President suggests longer school sessions for students

[euphononium]

I'll chime in. I know that you are simply one of several people blaming teachers for things... but I'll tell you that unless you ARE a teacher yourself (and maybe you are), then you have no right to claim them as the group to be fault. (Not as a blanket statement anyway... yes I realize that there are plenty of "bad" teachers out there).

Unless you have been a teacher and been given standards to achieve with no financial backing, no administrative support, no parental followthrough... etc... then you have no right to place blame.

Unless you have been a teacher, and been forced to comply with "no child left behind" while trying to maintain high standards... then you have no right to place blame.

Unless you have been a teacher.... well... you have no right.

There are so many issues right now in the "system" that it is easy to place blame. Sure SOME teachers "don't do their jobs." There are also Parents who "don't do their jobs," Governments who "don't do their jobs," people in every facet of life that "don't do their jobs."

In response to the OP... I don't see this as ever happening. It comes down to money, just like everything else, and more time = more money... which Obama would rather give to the Car Companies.

i said that teachers and staff would have to "do their job" because what the poster said was absolutely ludicrous. the staff members of a drum corps provide a service to students for a fee. is it too much to expect that somebody who is paid by a drum corps (not a school) to teach students how to march and play in drum corps actually do that? i certainly don't think so. especially when dues/tuition are in excess of $2,000.

i apologize for coming off as a little harsh, i really have a lot of respect for teachers. i do not teach in a school environment (yet), but i instruct a city marching band in a very tough environment with little to no support. i realize this is not the same as teaching with school constraints. i agree with everything you have to say, i just put up an incomplete thought because Boo asked us to avoid turning this into a blame-fest...

i feel that settling for mediocrity is a growing social trend, not solely an education thing, as my post may have made it sound. the system is broken, and i'm not just talking about schools. spending more time in a broken system won't change the fact that it is broken. i really feel this is a non-issue for DCI. it is a band-aid to hold the system together and anyone who knows anything about education will see through it. of course, that's assuming the people in charge know anything...

Edited September 28, 2009 by euphononium

[perc2100]

unless he also proposes a way to PAY for students to go to school longer, this is a non issue.

1. No. Time during the school day is not spent productively. Bad teachers should be fired.

2. Students should not spend more time in school.

3. Yes, and we would quickly be out 5-10 corps, probably. Down to everyone makes the top 12, yay.

4. see first sentence.

Students are not falling behind their counterparts because they aren't in school enough. They are falling behind because bad teachers keep their jobs. Because students are rewarded for effort rather than outcome. Because the standards are too low. Raise the standards and students will meet them. It is unacceptable that there are middle school kids who do not know their multiplication tables. They have should have never progressed beyond 3rd grade. Less students should go to college (the US 6 year graduation rate is terrible) and more should go to trade / technical school. Our students are behind because our system is terrible. Going to school for longer in a terrible system will do nothing to fix the problem.

While I think your opinion is PARTIALLY correct, I think that the larger reason why our students are failing behind many other countries in education is because teachers A) do not get the proper funding/support from the govt, and B) do not get the proper support from parents. There is a culture in our country that education is not valued (as it is in many other countries), and parents nor students take public education as serious as their Asian and European counterparts. Teachers in Japan, for example, are given HUGE respect and parents wouldn't even think about questioning their judgement or actions. In America, people have similar naive opinions as the one above (i.e. the write off education completely as "too many bad teachers" instead of voting for tax increases that better pay for education and/or teach their children to have responsibility for their education), and foster bad education habbits to their children. I agree that there are issues with our education system, but they come from ALL sides, not just 'bad teachers keeping their jobs.'

[kansasDC]

When I spent a little time in Japan a few years ago, I was at a handful of high schools and learned something that was rather interesting. While the official school day isn't what we would consider long, the typical Japanese student stays at the school well into the evening, working on various class projects, homework, and band. It almost seemed like they only went home to sleep. Learning doesn't stop when the official school day ends. It was a totally different mindset than what I had been exposed to in the U.S.

Mike hit the nail on the head with this one. The difference is the overall work ethic in the Japanese culture versus here. And I am not saying that that is necessarily a good thing. I have worked with quite a few business people from Japan and other similar countries, and their whole life is their job. They work from the time they awake until the time they go to sleep. They send emails all hours of the day and night and work seven days a week, with virtually no time off to "smell the roses". And they have fostered the same culture with their school-aged children. I prefer to have a balanced life, where I work very hard and efficiently when I am on the job, but also take time off to enjoy my family and hobbies (like drum corps) as well.

Besides, even with this so-called better performance in their schools, the majority of the new ideas and patents for new technology still come out of the USA. We still have the most creative society on Earth.

[perc2100]

This is also the Main issue. Teachers don't teach (creativity, love for learning, exploration) anymore. They "teach" how to take and pass the standardized tests. The principals and department heads now keep a tight rein on this so the test scores are high and the schools get their funding.

Correct, unfortunately. Thanks to the NCLB Act, funding is ALL about how schools do on the standardized tests. Schools are funded when their scores not only meet a certain criteria (i.e. test scores), but also that they improve.

Of course, there was no extra funding given to match the ludicrous demands placed on school district (quite the opposite: with the recession funding has mostly been cut), thus making it even more dire for teachers to teach to the tests.

That all being said, education is cyclical. Standardized testing is the rage now, and eventually the pendulum will swing back the other way (hopefully sooner rather than later). I find it interesting that Obama wants to make radical changes to education, when many of the current problems were created due to presidential/govt. oversight.

[euphononium]

some very related comedic relief for everyone.

[Bruckner8]

My first day as High School Math Teacher:

Me: "Person X, please take your seat."

PersonX: "Go F*** yourself."

Me: "Person X, please report to the office."

[PersonX reports to office]

a few hours later, the Assistant Principal comes to my prep period.

AP: "What did you do to put Person X in that situation?"

Me: "What do you mean? Assigned Person X's seat?"

AP: "You obviously did something wrong, to cause Person X to react like that."

I knew then and there I was done. I finished the year, and have never taught again, instead having gone on to work in a more lucrative and respected profession: Computer Programmer.

Public Education is indeed broken.

If Obama really wants to do something radical, he'd setup a National Drum Corps Program, and make every kid participate during the summer! I think we'd all agree that we learned a lot more life skills during Drum Corps than we ever did in the classroom.

[perc2100]

President Obama suggests students need to stay in school longer.

Much research has showed that American students are falling behind their counterparts around the world. Are longer school days or longer semesters the answer? The reason I'm asking this is due to the first paragraph in this article. If summer vacations are shortened, what impact (if any) could that have on our activity?

Some other questions:

1) Do you agree students should spend more time in school?

2) How about if that affects drum corps?

3) If longer school terms became the norm, would drum corps essentially become more of a college student activity?

4) Is this something we need to be concerned about, or is it premature to assume it would/could happen?

While this is a suggestion/proposal by a political office holder, please, let's not let this thread turn political, because it would get closed.

I'm mostly wondering what we should anticipate in case this becomes the norm.

1) I think there are other modifications that need to be made to education, and more time in school isn't necessarily the answer: more EFFECTIVE time in school is the real answer. There are models of year-round education that would still include the traditional 180 ish days of school, but would just shift vacation time around. I've seen stats that indicate both year-round school is more effective, and that it's just as effective as traditional school. I don't know what the answer is schedule wise, as it would complicate MANY things in the traditional schedule (sports schedules, marching band competitions, etc). I do think that some kind of revision to our national education system is needed, but that's above my pay grade: I just do the best with the students I get.

2 & 3) Obviously it would affect drum corps if the majority (or all) of our public schools are on a year-round schedule. It would affect membership as well as housing. On one hand drum corps would need to shift back to a localized tour schedule, but on the other hand the membership would likely shift to even more college-aged students. Year round school schedule would likely mean more school-related functions during the summer month weekends, so corps membership would probably HAVE to be college-aged members.

4) I think it's a little premature to seriously worry about this. Every time there's a new president (especially from the opposite party as the outgoing president) there is a ton or rhetoric about change, and it's typically unlikely most of what is said will happen (I VIVIDLY remember Clinton with his National Health Care card) due to logistics, money, and support.

If I remember correctly, Obama's education plans were not popular with the American Federation of Teachers, and a likely compromise would need to happen for his ideas to be put in place. I think he has a bit more on his plate to worry about at this time, and I don't think it's likely his radical changes will occur in the near future.

[Bob J]

My first day as High School Math Teacher:

Me: "Person X, please take your seat."

PersonX: "Go F*** yourself."

Me: "Person X, please report to the office."

[PersonX reports to office]

a few hours later, the Assistant Principal comes to my prep period.

AP: "What did you do to put Person X in that situation?"

Me: "What do you mean? Assigned Person X's seat?"

AP: "You obviously did something wrong, to cause Person X to react like that."

I knew then and there I was done. I finished the year, and have never taught again, instead having gone on to work in a more lucrative and respected profession: Computer Programmer.

Public Education is indeed broken.

If Obama really wants to do something radical, he'd setup a National Drum Corps Program, and make every kid participate during the summer! I think we'd all agree that we learned a lot more life skills during Drum Corps than we ever did in the classroom.

I second this idea. As a spouse of a teacher, I see our society's attitude toward education as the problem. Kids who are eager to learn were raised that way. Kids who mouth off to their teachers were raised that way as well. Good teachers are not valued and rewarded the way employees are in the private sector. And lousy teachers cannot be fired. They are all pushed to "meet the standard" vs. excel. I think we all could use a little dose of drum corps.

[BRASSO]

Students do not need more INT

[Whiskey]

If Obama really wants to do something radical, he'd setup a National Drum Corps Program, and make every kid participate during the summer! I think we'd all agree that we learned a lot more life skills during Drum Corps than we ever did in the classroom.

So then we can get a society of complainers that rant on one of the following subjects:

1. We marched a more difficult show than yours.

2. All you did was fly and use your jetpacks, you didn't march as much as my corps.

3. My show had more GE than your show so we should have placed ahead of you.

4. Your arrangements are just bop and chop, while we actually play melody.

5. Our drumline should have won because our snare line was tickless.

6. It's just marching band.

All in good fun of course.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Whiskey