garfield Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) To the original poster, two things:"First, I don't see the reasoning in splitting hairs between "Fire of..." and "Flames of...". The title is translated from the Russian original, and as such, there are a few different interpretations. Perhaps "Flames of..." is more correct, but it's a fallacy to call "Fire of..." INcorrect." "And how dare one say that the history behind the composition of the piece is "useless trivia"! This social/historical context is what creates the emotion in the piece! Sure, it was exciting when Regiment played it. And really loud. Whoopie. The TRUE emotion comes from this "useless trivia" that so many people throw away." "Music like this is about looking past the loud noises, and seeing the underlying inspiration! Being swept away by its beauty and volume is, in my opinion, a result of being a superficial listener (what the majority of the drum corps community is, I think). Looking between the lines, knowing this "useless trivia"--THAT is when you are truly listening." "Just my thoughts. In no way am I trying to cut anyone down, I just get on a soapbox sometimes. Thanks for listening " I AM the original poster... As I said in a later post I have a Russian immigrant friend, a classical music nut, who corrected me when I brought the piece up. It was he who said "...it's Flames, not Fire..." so I can divert your nit-picking to him. But I have a hard time rationalizing your "more correct" comment. It's like saying 1 + 1 = 2.1 is more correct than 1 + 1 = 2.2. Their both wrong. Hence "Wrong" is the right. Further, if it's important to understand the historical context of the music (I agree) then isn't it equally important to know the CORRECT history, like it's friggin' name? Alright, so maybe I should have used "interesting" instead of "useless". My bad. But I disagree with your whole concept here. Are you suggesting that to really enjoy music one should study it's history before hearing it? 12 corps in finals times, say four songs each; so I should study 48 pieces of music just so I can REALLY enjoy them at the stadium? Are you serious? I've been a classical music fan for 50 years and a drum corps nut for 35 but, amazingly, I had never learned the history Flames until last week. Are you saying I haven't REALLY enjoyed the music in the last 16 years I've been listening to it? Granted, I may now have a greater appreciation for what Shostakovic was thinking when he wrote it but Phantom's arrangement and performance has knocked me off my chair hundreds of times and I had no clue about it's history. If I didn't know Beethoven was deaf would I enjoy the 9th any less? Don't think so. If one is unfamiliar with a piece they hear on the drum corps field but is blown away with the music, and they then search out the history of the music, that they only REALLY enjoy the music after having discovered the history? Wait. Then why did I enjoy it so much even though I didn't understand the history when I first heard it? I'm sorry, but yours is an illogical position (and I could use a few other flaming adjectives but I'll restrain myself). Maybe you should do a poll here. "Flames..." is obviously a very popular ballad. Do a poll and ask how many knew the history when they first heard it. But be careful claiming they didn't really enjoy it until they read my trivia. No, calling a majority of DC fans "superficial listeners", challenging correct word usage ("What's the meaning of 'Is'"?), and using invectives such as "How dare you...!"; no, none of that is cutting at all. OK, so you're a hoity-toity jerk. But don't take it personally. I wasn't trying to cut anyone down. Jeesh Edited October 7, 2009 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
709 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I AM the original poster...As I said in a later post I have a Russian immigrant friend, a classical music nut, who corrected me when I brought the piece up. It was he who said "...it's Flames, not Fire..." so I can divert your nit-picking to him. But I have a hard time rationalizing your "more correct" comment. It's like saying 1 + 1 = 2.1 is more correct than 1 + 1 = 2.2. Their both wrong. Hence "Wrong" is the right. Further, if it's important to understand the historical context of the music (I agree) then isn't it equally important to know the CORRECT history, like it's friggin' name? Alright, so maybe I should have used "interesting" instead of "useless". My bad. But I disagree with your whole concept here. Are you suggesting that to really enjoy music one should study it's history before hearing it? 12 corps in finals times, say four songs each; so I should study 48 pieces of music just so I can REALLY enjoy them at the stadium? Are you serious? I've been a classical music fan for 50 years and a drum corps nut for 35 but, amazingly, I had never learned the history Flames until last week. Are you saying I haven't REALLY enjoyed the music in the last 16 years I've been listening to it? Granted, I may now have a greater appreciation for what Shostakovic was thinking when he wrote it but Phantom's arrangement and performance has knocked me off my chair hundreds of times and I had no clue about it's history. If I didn't know Beethoven was deaf would I enjoy the 9th any less? Don't think so. If one is unfamiliar with a piece they hear on the drum corps field but is blown away with the music, and they then search out the history of the music, that they only REALLY enjoy the music after having discovered the history? Wait. Then why did I enjoy it so much even though I didn't understand the history when I first heard it? I'm sorry, but yours is an illogical position (and I could use a few other flaming adjectives but I'll restrain myself). Maybe you should do a poll here. "Flames..." is obviously a very popular ballad. Do a poll and ask how many knew the history when they first heard it. But be careful claiming they didn't really enjoy it until they read my trivia. No, calling a majority of DC fans "superficial listeners", challenging correct word usage ("What's the meaning of 'Is'"?), and using invectives such as "How dare you...!"; no, none of that is cutting at all. OK, so you're a hoity-toity jerk. But don't take it personally. I wasn't trying to cut anyone down. Jeesh I agree with just about everything you've said. I would just say that knowing more about the creation and history of a piece will let an individual enjoy it more and on a different level than without said information. I think most people who love music might agree with that statement; I know that I do. I believe that is what Room_101 meant, though I'm sure he'll chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room_101 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 You just said it yourself. "I may now have a greater appreciation..." This is really all I'm saying. Sure, you can enjoy the piece without knowing anything about it, but a DEEPER enjoyment comes when you put it in the social/historical/musicological context. I'm sure there was someone there that Finals night that heard the Shostakovich and thought, "Wow...this is the most incredible piece of music I've ever heard." A quick story: One particular moment in Shostakovich's life (I believe between the composition of the 4th and 5th symphonies, but I might be mistaken), a Russian officer knocked on Shostakovich's door and told him to report to some government building on Monday morning--it was a Saturday. He, like all of Russia at that time, knew what this appointment meant. He spent the rest of that weekend contacting family members, finishing his will, etc., because he knew that he would never live to see the sun go down Monday evening. He walks into the government office on Monday, checks in, and is told, "You're free to go." As luck would have it, the person who was to kill Shostakovich had committed suicide just hours previous. NOW. Don't you think that audience member who was so touched by the Shostakovich that evening now finds the music even MORE incredible because of the kind of environment in which it was written? I certainly do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) You just said it yourself."I may now have a greater appreciation..." This is really all I'm saying. Sure, you can enjoy the piece without knowing anything about it, but a DEEPER enjoyment comes when you put it in the social/historical/musicological context. I'm sure there was someone there that Finals night that heard the Shostakovich and thought, "Wow...this is the most incredible piece of music I've ever heard." A quick story: One particular moment in Shostakovich's life (I believe between the composition of the 4th and 5th symphonies, but I might be mistaken), a Russian officer knocked on Shostakovich's door and told him to report to some government building on Monday morning--it was a Saturday. He, like all of Russia at that time, knew what this appointment meant. He spent the rest of that weekend contacting family members, finishing his will, etc., because he knew that he would never live to see the sun go down Monday evening. He walks into the government office on Monday, checks in, and is told, "You're free to go." As luck would have it, the person who was to kill Shostakovich had committed suicide just hours previous. NOW. Don't you think that audience member who was so touched by the Shostakovich that evening now finds the music even MORE incredible because of the kind of environment in which it was written? I certainly do. Maybe, but I'm not really a fan of people that make it their mission to educate the rest of us. Im guilty of it too....as I have a much higher level of music education and history than my friends, but I can tell by looking at them that they just want me to shut up and stop acting so prissy and smart. I dont think you can generalize and say that knowing the background to a piece always makes it more enjoyable...in fact sometimes it may make it worse. Edited October 8, 2009 by euponitone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 anyway, what always amazed me about the piece was the shakos / helmets on the field. I did something similar with a band this year, and it was a nightmare trying to time everything and get people back to where they needed to be without looking contrived. Oh, and if I could have been one person in 1993, I would have been that mello player in the front of that triangle. Good LOOORRRDDD..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) NOW. Don't you think that audience member who was so touched by the Shostakovich that evening now finds the music even MORE incredible because of the kind of environment in which it was written? I certainly do. not one gd bit. Edited October 8, 2009 by chaos001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 not one gd bit. Haha....excellent oh, and I'm going to change my profile 'location" info in honor of yours...gimme a sec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Haha....excellentoh, and I'm going to change my profile 'location" info in honor of yours...gimme a sec ha! it's just how i felt about that comment. it's been one of those weeks with my students...the horns have had to come out and apparently they're on the ready in here as well. the charmed city not good enough for your location? unfortunately i am from a paris...sadly not france. Edited October 8, 2009 by chaos001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 ha! it's just how i felt about that comment. it's been one of those weeks with my students...the horns have had to come out and apparently they're on the ready on here as well.the charmed city not good enough for your location? unfortunately i am from a paris...sadly not france. Im still from baltimore, and will be back there soon-ish, but, yeah.. in france now, and its like 5am. Maybe I should go to sleep and stop watching regiment shows on FN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Im still from baltimore, and will be back there soon-ish, but, yeah.. in france now, and its like 5am. Maybe I should go to sleep and stop watching regiment shows on FN a lucky man you are! what brings you there? you??? watching Regiment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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