Fran Haring Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Disagree with this. The execution portion of the tick sys (remember, the sys included a build-up portion), in theory, was/is concrete. In theory, yes. In practice, no... not always. IMO, based on my experience with the tick system. Problems arose when corps A felt that a single judge applied a different level of tolerance to their corps vs. corps B, C, and D... in other words, inconsistent tolerance levels for a single judge. Was that a valid gripe? Maybe. Maybe? I would say definitely... most definitely a valid gripe/concern. Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Regardless, I think it's nutty to presume kids/corps today don't focus just as much on execution today as they did in "back in the day." Also, I don't envy judges one bit. Don't care what the system is, you can pick it apart and "someone" will come away feeling like they got jobbed. Very good points. Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Given the increase in the size, tempo, design and movement of corps today, I can't see how a field judge could possibly operate (both effectively and fairly) under the tick system of yesteryear. There's just too much going on at the same time out there now. It might be OK if you were a perc judge and had a snare line in front of you in a standstill posture for 11 minutes, but that's not the case today. That's a great point. I started judging under the tick system. I can't imagine trying to chase down a line, be in position to evaluate the phrase, hear something...locate the proper spot on the sheet to record the error...decide whether it was a single tick or a group error...and if group decide how many ticks to assign...mark the sheet...maybe draw a vertical line through the sheet if the number was at an end...and then do it again..of course, by that time the line would be about 35 yards away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 The biggest difference in the tick system and judging system today?The tick system judged the performers, and today's system judges the designers. Ok Ok I realize it's not as cut and dried or black and white as that, but hopefully you get the jyst of what I'm saying. I get what you are saying, I just don't think it is true, Performance judges evaluate the performers, just like execution judges did BITD...only the current system is a better mechanism than the old ticks ever were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Would that be a tic or 1/10th penalty for dropped equipment? Pretty sure DCA would be .10 penalty.Unless he would be dumb enough to pick it up (1 POINT) or say something (another POINT)... Of course he'd get tic'ed for the notes he missed until the judge retrieved the mallet. If he did not play, there would be no ticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I get what you are saying, I just don't think it is true, Performance judges evaluate the performers, just like execution judges did BITD...only the current system is a better mechanism than the old ticks ever were. I absolutely agree that today's system is better than the tick system.... but under the current system, there are times when design carries the day for a given corps that might not have such a good night execution-wise. Good point earlier, Mike, about trying to chase down ticks in a modern-day show, with the speed of the visuals in today's programs. I'm laughing just thinking about it....."OK.... was that a mellophone or trumpet........wait a minute.... they're a mile away!!!!!" LOL Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I absolutely agree that today's system is better than the tick system.... but under the current system, there are times when design carries the day for a given corps that might not have such a good night execution-wise. Which is not all that different from the analysis judges who evaluated the 'what' as opposed to the 'how' back then. By 1980'ish, I think the ex sheet, at least percussion, was 12 points with 8 for the PA judge. In 71, one judge had 17 for execution and then had 3 for difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Which is not all that different from the analysis judges who evaluated the 'what' as opposed to the 'how' back then. By 1980'ish, I think the ex sheet, at least percussion, was 12 points with 8 for the PA judge. In 71, one judge had 17 for execution and then had 3 for difficulty. Remember when the "content analysis" subcaption (a maximum of five points) was added to the brass sheets back in the day, and how it stirred a bit of controversy because it was a buildup mechanism? There was an album made called "5.0." It featured the Argonne Rebels and Madison Scouts... the two corps whose hornlines scored perfect fives in that caption...I believe that was in 1971. Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 (edited) Disagree with this. The execution portion of the tick sys (remember, the sys included a build-up portion), in theory, was/is concrete. As I remember it, problems didn't really arise as a result of differing tolerances "between" judges. As long as a specific judge's tolerance for gray vs. tick is applied consistently and evenly across corps, there really is no problem (especially if the panel is well chosen).Problems arose when corps A felt that a single judge applied a different level of tolerance to their corps vs. corps B, C, and D... in other words, inconsistent tolerance levels for a single judge. Was that a valid gripe? Maybe. But, if it was, then that doesn't point to the tick sys as being subjective. Rather, it points to an individual applying subjectivity to a concrete system in order to yield a specific result (kind of akin to keeping a "mental note" of execution under today's system). the problem one you could have guys standing side by side and have a drastically different number of ticks Edited January 19, 2010 by Jeff Ream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 (edited) If he did not play, there would be no ticks. That's what I get for posting just before I want to get off the PC and do something productive. If any judge picked up that something was missing it would not be the execution judge. And to go with previous posts, what judge would want to get in the middle of todays fast moving shows. And then take his eyes OFF the action to write on the sheet. Saw enough near misses and a few hits in my day of "slow" drill. Edited January 19, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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