The Roof Will Be Open

[cowtown]

Now that’s an interesting development

I don’t know if it will help the sound but it will be better – LOS is really a buzz kill of a stadium, it was like sitting in a dark movie theatre for way too many hours, 3 days in a row during the peak of summer. It sucked, it was depressing and it was stupid…yes, stupid so opening roof might help that out a tiny bit. LOS really does kill the crowds, you’ll see.

Anyway, I might consider a trip to Q-finals, still need to see what’s on the field. It will be odd rolling out of Indy with finals a day away but I don’t need the frustration of a sucky venue sucking hard – the DVDs are a huge improvement over the live experience, how disgusting is that?

Very

This talk about fairness and field conditions, read a little of the thread before my eyes rolled back into my head, is beyond silly. How weak the mighty marchers have become if they buy into that junk

[audiodb]

* in 1995, there were at best 18 World (Open at that time) class corps: maybe only 17 if Southwind was Div. 2

I used 1995, since that was the year before Dan A. took over DCI

* in 1996, Dan A's first year as DCI Director, there were at best 20 (not sure about some of those that competed at Quarters).

* in 1997 there were 20

* in 1998 there were 19

Flash forward

* in 2007 there were 22

* in 2008 there were 20

* in 2009 there were, as you stated, 23

At best DCI has seen staggered, slight growth, and has stabilized to an extent; at worst DCI has stagnated during Dan A's tenure, but has stayed relatively the same, growth-wise, since Dan took over.

Not sure what the point of these cherry-picked stats is. If you're looking to cover for Dan Acheson, no need....I'll stipulate to him being DCI's finest executive director ever.

A couple of years before he took that position, though, DCI cut back from top-25 to top-21 for member corps status (and not all qualifying corps accepted that status, as you are aware).

To answer your other questions, I focused on DCI member corps because that is all the DCI Board has control over. To a small degree Div 2/3 is under their umbrella, but not at the extent of the World Class member corps.

Since DCM's departure, DCI = the North American junior activity. Open-class is involved in DCI to the same extent as world-class (100%).

I personally feel it's not really fair to hold DCI accountable for corps that are not member corps, and therefor have no 'control' over.

Oh, I get it now. You don't want big, bad DCP "holding DCI accountable" for something. That's not my objective for posting here, but I can't speak for others, so I acknowledge your fear.

Moving on, though....

I agree that it is alarming to see so many drum corps fold over the years. But realistically, I would bet that the majority of drum corps fold due to lack of financial support. To criticize DCI for corps folding NOT under their leadership doesn't make sense IMO.

What difference does that make? Would you blindly blame DCI for member corps that folded, while not even evaluating their effect on non-member corps? They all play in the same sandbox.

I think it's very easy to point the blame at a singular person, or organization, or even on a singular decision ("amps killed Capital Regiment because they couldn't afford a sound system and therefor folded when they bought it").

To stand by and watch the rest of the non-member corps fold, like three converging baseball players watching a fly ball drop between them, is not an option I would accept. The time has come for DCI to take the same kind of responsibilities for open-class that they do for world-class (in many ways, they already do). And the time has come for people to stop making excuses for why DCI shouldn't.

[Jeff Ream]

Out of curiosity, do you feel there is anything they should be owning up to now? If so, who should be taking responsibility and admitting a mistake?

I had a great post all worked up, typed it...then the web crashed, so take 2.

I think DCI should have said a lot more about LOS right after, even if not during. They are taking steps now, which is good, but I think the period of silence wasn't good.

I think too often the rhetoric surrounding rules changes hasn't helped them. I know most corps directors aren't PR guys, but there's a few that should think, type it up, and let someone else edit before they say it. Especially those that make disparaging remarks about any type of fans...new or old.

That said...mostly because of Bob Jacobs...fans are seeing a side of DCI they never have before...brutal candid openness. I applaud it. No we'll never hear all we want to, but Bob has opened up a lot of stuff on the inside that was NEVER said before, and he does it in a way that isn't self serving or smug. For those on the fence, Bob has done a HUGE favor to DCI....given some fans hope and a reason not to walk away.

And if they accomplish half of what the Januals videos talked about, this is fantastic, however they go about doing it. But if something bombs...I think saying " well, yeah, that could have gone better" would also be huge.

Oh and not releasing conflicting statements would be good ( "yes fans LOS has issues"/"judges say its great"). That one didn't make DCI look good.

It's my hope that after this year, their biggest issue is that they are locked into LOS, and many small festering ones ( minus show design...that willalways have critics) go away. While I may not attend LOS after this year, I'll remain a paying customer in other ways.

I really hope DCI knows what Bob Jacobs has done for them, and they appreciate him.

[chasgroh]

Not sure what the point of these cherry-picked stats is. If you're looking to cover for Dan Acheson, no need....I'll stipulate to him being DCI's finest executive director ever.

A couple of years before he took that position, though, DCI cut back from top-25 to top-21 for member corps status (and not all qualifying corps accepted that status, as you are aware).

Since DCM's departure, DCI = the North American junior activity. Open-class is involved in DCI to the same extent as world-class (100%).

Oh, I get it now. You don't want big, bad DCP "holding DCI accountable" for something. That's not my objective for posting here, but I can't speak for others, so I acknowledge your fear.

Moving on, though....

What difference does that make? Would you blindly blame DCI for member corps that folded, while not even evaluating their effect on non-member corps? They all play in the same sandbox.

To stand by and watch the rest of the non-member corps fold, like three converging baseball players watching a fly ball drop between them, is not an option I would accept. The time has come for DCI to take the same kind of responsibilities for open-class that they do for world-class (in many ways, they already do). And the time has come for people to stop making excuses for why DCI shouldn't.

I agree totally with what you're saying here, Ken, but it's SO tough to *do*, seeing as how the groups that truly comprise DCI, the *voting* corps (read; directors), are in perpetual Cover-Your-Area (heh) mode and that ain't gonna change anytime soon. It's a tough situation, 'cause I'll betcha a majority would be willing to put more into the "Open" groups...but not at the expense of their own solvency! Dan has done so much for the organization, but alot of the time his hands are tied by his boss...the voting membership.

cg

[MikeD]

+1

+2

[MikeD]

my hunch is shwo design is what hurt in the mid 90's, as well as the economy til the dot.com boom. at that point, most major rules changes had been in place since the early 80's. Since then, I'll wager since the 2003 Januals/Rules Congress, the rules changes and the addition of amny things electronic...as well as show design turned people off.

Of course you are free to hold a personal opinion, but don't try and make it more than that. I absolutely disagree that the small rule changes since 2003...amps (which added not one new instrument) and electronics (that has not been a featured part of most corps shows)...has had any measurable effect on show attendance. That's MHO.

I don't think Bb turned away that many fans, especially as after the mid 90s, shows became more generally popular and a bunch of new fans had been brought in. Didn't hurt to have finals in 2 places long overdue.

I agree...but if you read RAMD back then you would think the world was coming to an end...and some here and RAMD still complain about Bb/F horns for some reason.

I'm hopeful DCI can make some meaningful fixes. I'm personally praying that electronics usage stays as "color" to a show as opposed to an over riding neccesity to ake some shows work.

Why? I like variety...seeing an electronics-heavy show every now and then would be great. Corps should not feel constrained in any way when designing the very best show they can.

But...if DCI does at least try things...and admit mistakes if things fail ( which isn't their forte)...they will see more forgiveness instead of criticism that is as ugly as last year.

A few malcontents are inevitable in any era.

People want to at least see them try, and if it bombs, own up to it. That is, IMO, the greatest thing DCI can do to help perception. Conflicting press releases ( the stadium has issues/the judges say it's great) don't help.

What has 'bombed' that needs 'owning up'? You seem to be saying that because DCI does things YOU don't like they should somehow apologize for that. I disagree. There is NOTHING they need to apologize for as an organization.

[MikeD]

Oh, I get it now. You don't want big, bad DCP "holding DCI accountable" for something. That's not my objective for posting here, but I can't speak for others, so I acknowledge your fear.

The NFL is not responsible for the CFL. Why should DCI consider itself responsible for circuits and corps that are outside of it's direct control?

[Jeff Ream]

Of course you are free to hold a personal opinion, but don't try and make it more than that. I absolutely disagree that the small rule changes since 2003...amps (which added not one new instrument) and electronics (that has not been a featured part of most corps shows)...has had any measurable effect on show attendance. That's MHO.

I agree...but if you read RAMD back then you would think the world was coming to an end...and some here and RAMD still complain about Bb/F horns for some reason.

Why? I like variety...seeing an electronics-heavy show every now and then would be great. Corps should not feel constrained in any way when designing the very best show they can.

A few malcontents are inevitable in any era.

What has 'bombed' that needs 'owning up'? You seem to be saying that because DCI does things YOU don't like they should somehow apologize for that. I disagree. There is NOTHING they need to apologize for as an organization.

sigh..for some reason the latest upgrade to Mozilla isnt letting me quote like I used to, so here goes:

amps was NOT a small rules change Mike....it was HUGE because of what it allowed to follow. no amps, no vocals, no synths, no sound guy on the field, in the box. Allowing amps was huge, because as many predicted, it would open the door wider for what many fans didn't want, and still don't want.

yeah some fans prefer G. At times, I miss the pure power of G, but a few corps have gotten the power on Bb, but some of that, IMO, has to do with arranging and teaching.

I like variety too......to a point. However, drum corps had a ton of variety...now with the passage of all the new toys, I see less variety than ever, especially in terms of show design, pacing, and a lot of staging..."oh a hit, we'll be in a box"..."ogh a drum break, let's do all the required body moves we saw all winter in WGI"

malcontents or dissatisfied customers Mike? There's a huge difference. Sure you pretty much kiss DCI's ### for everything they do, but you're, IMO, not the majority. YOu, and some corps directors when you read some of their statements view them as malcontents. As someone who runs a business, any fan feedback is worth listening to and not disparaging it or labeling them as "malcontents, complainers and whiners".

Which is why I truly love what Bob jacobs is doing...yes he is entering the snake pit here. This is where the most passionately outspoken come...and he's still here, taking it, occasionaly firing back, but often doing more to educate than label people as "malcontents". By you doing the opposite, you actually hurt DCI more than you help, despite how much you profess to be on their side for everything they do.

It's not just me Mike....look how many people out and out mocked the new retreat format. Look at how much people complained about the finals rotation set up years ago....DCi fixed that. They heardthe fans loud and clear. If retreat's being tweaked, no one has heard about it. The roof is now open for part of a show ( should be all of it)...so at least they are acknowledging the sound issues.

but...if you have MANY fans unhappy ( and they do, no matter how you try and spin it) then yes, if they want to continue to be an organization not losing money, they need to apologize. Look at Toyota...they surely aren't listening. Does DCi want to be that company? Can they afford to be that company? No. hence why, between Bob and the Fan Network stuff, I think they finally realize the audience...the people that PAY to see their product...wants some things changed.

that is smart business, even if you don't like it.

[kickhaltsforlife]

Win goes to Jeff.

[MikeD]

Win goes to Jeff.

Hardly. He just proves what I said.