ShortAndFast Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 DCI tried this back in 1/4 finals back in '89. They only did it for one year for a reason. Well, championships are probably a different animal. Your seeding there has been earned by your placements over the season, or on the previous night. In theory, judges can just rank and rate according to the sheets. In practice, if you're seeing two corps at nearly identical levels and trying to make a judgement call between them, it probably helps to see them back to back. Especially if that judgement call winds up being the 0.1 between 12th/13th at semis or 1st/2nd at finals. For shows before championships, I kind of like what they did for San Antonio where they randomized within a placement range (e.g. random draw for 1-3. random draw for 4-6). That way you're forcing the judges to rate the shows, but you're not asking Pioneer to go on after Cavaliers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 At SOME shows, you might see the crowd leave early... a smart scheduler would mix them in, not just reverse the order. Also, other shows not in the northeast tend to react a bit differently (i did not notice people leaving the crowd for the Colts in Des Moines this week, yes, theyre an iowa corps, but also 4 hours from des moines).The real problem would be the judging inconsistency created by a judge having to compare corps going on hours apart from each other. We all know its an advantage score wise to go on later. it'd be nice to see happen, as I watch all corps, but too many people only want the top acts. I'd say maybe slowly try it at a few shows ( not last, but mixed in) and see if it catches on. as for judging....it shouldn't really change anything except maybe some top scores wouldn't be as high, or some bottom scores may not be as low, and I think that's not bad. I've had to judge up to 26 drumlines at a time, and they weren't in any placement determined prior to coming in. it's tough, but it can be done, done well, and still keep people from popping 20's as well as getting 60's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) I think it is a well intentioned idea, but I don't like it. I want to spend a bunch of time in the lot and buying souvies because I love doing so, and then go spend a bunch of time watching the best corps. While I would agree that there are generally smaller crowds in the stands for the smaller corps, I just don't see it being the big problem that folks make it out to be. I also don't see it as a slight on the kids. It is just a reality, not a problem that needs fixing. :thumbup: Your thinking is what INFURIATES me! It's the very reason why there is elitism in corps and why kids decide that it's "a top corps or bust". Cant you buy souvies before the show or during intermission...or even after the show? And to this day I just dont understand what people find so entertaining about watching a hornline stretch and do pitch bending for 30 minutes. Are people really that enamored by the "best corps". Is 30 minutes of scales and tuning really that exciting?! I'm surprised the DCI elite havent considered selling used hornline bathwater or partially eaten food to the fans who just cant get enough of their favorite corps during showtime.... Edited July 22, 2010 by shostahoosier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scvjesse Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 The real problem would be the judging inconsistency created by a judge having to compare corps going on hours apart from each other. We all know its an advantage score wise to go on later. You (and by you, I don't mean this particular poster... I'm just piggybacking on his point) also have to consider that the corps are on different sheets. Asking a judge to go back and forth between open and world class sheets over and over throughout the night would severely taint the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 This, unfortunately, is not a good idea. I was at the Ewing show and since Surf was the host corps, they got to go on last. At the end of Crown's performance and while Surf was lining up, 50% of the people were leaving the stands! People do not want to see the lesser corps and that is a huge shame! How do you think the Surf kids felt when they could see the long lines heading to the exits BEFORE they performed?Maybe the G-7 have a point I'm all for mixing things up. I remember that also happening as I was sitting in the stands getting ready to enjoy Surf. I'm not sure if it was 50%, but it was a pretty large number. It was extremely rude IMO. BUT it's not for me to complain about what others want to enjoy or not enjoy or what others do. When it comes to proper etiquette these days it seems to be lacking in that category anyway IMO from years past. I sat and enjoyed Surf and that's all that mattered to me. Of course I'm the type that stays for everything, until they actually throw me out of the stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I have to say that presenting the corps in order roughly by increasing quality makes the show much more enjoyable for the casual or novice audience member. As someone else pointed out, if The Cadets are followed by Teal Sound, then everyone is going to enjoy Teal less than they otherwise might. Folks who go to hundreds of shows might not experience this issue, but non-expert audiences are going to leave unimpressed with the lower-scoring corps or even feeling negative about them, whereas if you start with the lower-level corps and move up, the audience can be impressed over and over by each and every corps. I think that's better for the corps and better for the audience. I disagree. It does not make it any more enjoyable for me. Is a casual or novice audience member the target market anyway? I think we all underestimate the audience intelligence. Especially when I talk to people around me I realize that these are not novices or casual audience members sitting next to me by a long shot. I think the competition needs to be mixed all up. My night at the Ewing show this year ended on a high note with Surf performing, so as far as being better for the audience I disagree with you. Better for you..well that's about the only thing we agree on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwscv87 Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 :thumbup: Your thinking is what INFURIATES me! It's the very reason why there is elitism in corps and why kids decide that it's "a top corps or bust". Cant you buy souvies before the show or during intermission...or even after the show? And to this day I just dont understand what people find so entertaining about watching a hornline stretch and do pitch bending for 30 minutes. Are people really that enamored by the "best corps". Is 30 minutes of scales and tuning really that exciting?! I'm surprised the DCI elite havent considered selling used hornline bathwater or partially eaten food to the fans who just cant get enough of their favorite corps during showtime.... That is interesting. Your response certainly does not infuriate me, but it perplexes me. I don't know your background with respect to drum corps but you can see mine (good or bad). I was one of those kids in the lot. That is part of the deal for me. If you cannot see the appeal then I certainly am not about to try to get you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Well, championships are probably a different animal. Your seeding there has been earned by your placements over the season, or on the previous night. In theory, judges can just rank and rate according to the sheets. In practice, if you're seeing two corps at nearly identical levels and trying to make a judgement call between them, it probably helps to see them back to back. Especially if that judgement call winds up being the 0.1 between 12th/13th at semis or 1st/2nd at finals.For shows before championships, I kind of like what they did for San Antonio where they randomized within a placement range (e.g. random draw for 1-3. random draw for 4-6). That way you're forcing the judges to rate the shows, but you're not asking Pioneer to go on after Cavaliers. I don't like the groupings...I think it locks you in to that grouping unfairly as in your San Antonio example. Sorry but I personally have no problem seeing Pioneer on after Cavies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 That is interesting. Your response certainly does not infuriate me, but it perplexes me. I don't know your background with respect to drum corps but you can see mine (good or bad). I was one of those kids in the lot. That is part of the deal for me. If you cannot see the appeal then I certainly am not about to try to get you there. I dont really need to know anything about your background but if you were one of those kids in the lot, then you were also one of this kids on the field....and you realize how different it feels to perform in front of an audience rather than do a run through of your show for 10-15 staff members. But either way thats not even the biggest thing that bothers me. The fact that someone would rather mosey around, looking at cds and t-shirts rather than support a kid who has spent a lot of money and effort to be part of this activity and keep it going....thats what "perplexes me". You admit that you could care less about the majority of DCI and you only want to see the best corps. That attitude is part of the reason what keeps parity (both competitively and financially) out of DCI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbc03 Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Sorry but I personally have no problem seeing Pioneer on after Cavies! That's fine... for you. Personally I enjoy Pioneer a lot more when they go on early instead of trying to follow one of the top corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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