BDCorno Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 I still have my yearly complaint ...................If 2 or 3 or 4 corps deserve the same score according to the sheets .. then give them the same score. Whether it be an 8.0, 9.0 or a 9.9 ... I don't care. IF they're all deserving, then that's what their score should be. Rank and Rate has always been and will always be a thorn in my side. If judges don't rank and rate, what are they supposed to do? They're paid TO MAKE DECISIONS. They're also paid to REFLECT THE RELATIVE DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY when deciding between two or more corps. It's unfortunate that there is so much demonization/disrespect/criticism of people just doing their jobs. The sheets do not dictate a particular score, simply a range of scoring if you meet the (quite general) criteria of that "box". It is still incumbent upon the judges to score the corps within that range relative to their own proficiency AND to the other corps. It IS a competition and someone must pick winners...it just happens to be the judging panel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimisback Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) I ask everyone to look at the Blue Knights Graph. It gives a better picture of what happened. http://bknights.org/scores/standings.asp Edited July 24, 2010 by Jimisback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 I just wanted to address the concerns re/mid-level corps stalling or regressing score-wise. It's likely more a function of human nature than anything. When I was in brass judge training years back, we did an exercise in which we watched a number of shows. They were a from wide variety of proficiency levels and styles. All of us were asked to rank and score the shows. Once we were done, they put the scores onto the board in a large grid. What we found was that there was far less disagreement on scoring/ranking of the better groups in comparison to the lesser quality performances. As the quality of the group waned, the rank and rate was increasingly inconsistent amongst the judging group. It was illustrative in that it's more difficult to judge and score "the field" than it is the big powerhouses. My theory is that regional shows involving mid-level corps tend to over-score those groups...not always, but more often than not. When we get to the middle of the season and more groups get together from around the country, it gets even more complicated. In anticipation of seeing groups not previously evaluated, the baseline numbers will tend to start lower. The judge has to account for and leave room for unexpected scoring. If unseen groups end up not exceeding the seen groups in quality, then those scores will tend to drop overall. Being as it is that there is little dispute over the best groups, those numbers can tend to escalate, leaving a huge gap between the two sets of groups. On the surface, it appears the judges think a group has not improved, when it's clearly not the case. In reality, it's a natural part of the season. Once all have been seen in head-to-head conditions, a normalization of scores should ensue. We've seen a substantial jump in scores among the top groups, and you'll likely have the mid-level groups seeing rapid inflation of their scores over the next week or so. It's all part of the process. Particularly for groups going through a "slump" at this time, it's important that their staffs keep the focus on personal improvement and not the scoreboard. All the performers can control is their own personal performance level...it will be rewarded, but persevering through the midseason blahs is an important part of the process... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 I ask everyone to look at the Blue Knights Graph. It gives a better picture of what happened. http://bknights.org/scores/standings.asp Nice graph, hadn't seen it before. I think it tends to validate my observations on the scoring. Things will now tighten up, with the lower scoring groups seeing the largest improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) What I am saying is why adjust scores? That is what seems to have happened. Are the judges going by different rules from coast to coast? Just explain to me why this happened. But make it sound convincing. Jimisback.... say you are a judge. You are judging 7 Corps in competition right in front of you. You are asked to give a score SPREAD in your caption among the 7 Corps before you at this competiton show. Are you thinking about what one of the Corps got in your caption among a different mix of talented Corps on a previous night with another judge maybe 500 miles away ? And if you are thinking of that score spread by that other judge among a completely different mix of talented and performing Corps, then.... why ? Edited July 24, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimisback Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 (edited) I just wanted to address the concerns re/mid-level corps stalling or regressing score-wise. It's likely more a function of human nature than anything. When I was in brass judge training years back, we did an exercise in which we watched a number of shows. They were a from wide variety of proficiency levels and styles. All of us were asked to rank and score the shows. Once we were done, they put the scores onto the board in a large grid. What we found was that there was far less disagreement on scoring/ranking of the better groups in comparison to the lesser quality performances. As the quality of the group waned, the rank and rate was increasingly inconsistent amongst the judging group. It was illustrative in that it's more difficult to judge and score "the field" than it is the big powerhouses.My theory is that regional shows involving mid-level corps tend to over-score those groups...not always, but more often than not. When we get to the middle of the season and more groups get together from around the country, it gets even more complicated. In anticipation of seeing groups not previously evaluated, the baseline numbers will tend to start lower. The judge has to account for and leave room for unexpected scoring. If unseen groups end up not exceeding the seen groups in quality, then those scores will tend to drop overall. Being as it is that there is little dispute over the best groups, those numbers can tend to escalate, leaving a huge gap between the two sets of groups. On the surface, it appears the judges think a group has not improved, when it's clearly not the case. In reality, it's a natural part of the season. Once all have been seen in head-to-head conditions, a normalization of scores should ensue. We've seen a substantial jump in scores among the top groups, and you'll likely have the mid-level groups seeing rapid inflation of their scores over the next week or so. It's all part of the process. Particularly for groups going through a "slump" at this time, it's important that their staffs keep the focus on personal improvement and not the scoreboard. All the performers can control is their own personal performance level...it will be rewarded, but persevering through the midseason blahs is an important part of the process... My problem is, it seems to have happened at one or two events. The GROUPS are not going through a SLUMP. OVERALL there is a judging problem. They should address that. Simple and to the point. And maybe a reason DCI is losing viewers. They need to address these types of issues. Edited July 24, 2010 by Jimisback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 My problem is, it seems to have happened at one or two events. The GROUPS are not going through a SLUMP. OVERALL there is a judging problem. They should address that. Simple and to the point. And maybe a reason DCI is losing viewers. They need to address these types of issues. Should have clarified...scoring slump. Look at the bottom of the chart...those groups have leveled out and some even dropped. If this was the same panel of judges every show, you might have a case. Small panels at early season shows have an impact. Many of the corps are seeing large panels for the first time, and many judges are seeing corps for the first time head to head. Refer to my original post for the rest... As long as overall scoring of the corps stays in the correct "box", and area of the same box, then there's little to complain about. Are kids and fans so thin-skinned these days that they can't deal with a two point drop in score? If you're scoring 75 and you get a 73, that's a 2.7% difference...hardly a statistical disaster. Corps have bad nights, too. Maybe some actually were 2% or more "off" in their performances. The pressure of a big meeting of corps for the first time, weather, bus breakdowns...any of a number of conditions can be in play. If everyone on the slate had seen everyone already...or not...that is something to consider. Point is, too many variables to really pin it on the judging alone. It's always a little squirrely this time of year. Are you proposing DCI tells judges what minimum score they have to give a corps, based on previous shows? There is already too many conspiracy theories about dictated scores and placings...do we need to make it reality? Hope everyone gets over it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimisback Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 Should have clarified...scoring slump. Look at the bottom of the chart...those groups have leveled out and some even dropped. If this was the same panel of judges every show, you might have a case. Small panels at early season shows have an impact. Many of the corps are seeing large panels for the first time, and many judges are seeing corps for the first time head to head. Refer to my original post for the rest...As long as overall scoring of the corps stays in the correct "box", and area of the same box, then there's little to complain about. Are kids and fans so thin-skinned these days that they can't deal with a two point drop in score? If you're scoring 75 and you get a 73, that's a 2.7% difference...hardly a statistical disaster. Corps have bad nights, too. Maybe some actually were 2% or more "off" in their performances. The pressure of a big meeting of corps for the first time, weather, bus breakdowns...any of a number of conditions can be in play. If everyone on the slate had seen everyone already...or not...that is something to consider. Point is, too many variables to really pin it on the judging alone. It's always a little squirrely this time of year. Are you proposing DCI tells judges what minimum score they have to give a corps, based on previous shows? There is already too many conspiracy theories about dictated scores and placings...do we need to make it reality? Hope everyone gets over it! Sure a 2.7 % drop for ONE corps. Even two or three. Sorry it looks strange to me that more than HALF dropped. Can anyone come up with a duplicate year. If so I will reconsider. In one show, that many drops at that level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrnguy500 Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 It's hard to accept some of these scores when certain corps 'ahem', are 2 pointing their next closest corps to stay in 1st place. To me, BD is way too high or the corps below them are not close enough in terms of points. I really don't see that big of a gap between the corps. Granted I'm not a judge so I'm guessing that gap will close in the next couple weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogman87 Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 Spirit has been stuck in the mid 70s for a long time. I have seen the show improve a lot. Now they drop again? I have the same observation about Crossmen. All facets of the show have improved but scoring is flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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