You know drum corps is dying when.............

[Tom Brace]

Yes.... but he did serve up No. 535 to Mickey Mantle on a silver platter in 1968.

Oh, so true...and on a much higher mound than now.

McClain's 31 victories in a single season and the career shutouts of guys like Jenkins and Gibson led to the mound being lowered. Can anyone imagine what Nolan Ryan would have accomplished on an early 1960s mound with 80% day games?

[BRASSO]

I have to argue here. Anyone who knows anything about baseball knows how Ty Cobb was treated in retirement. Same, to an extent, could be said of Pete Rose and Ferguson Jenkins certainly lost the first ballot HOF because of a marijuana conviction.

What do all three of these examples have to do with drum corps...

Well, all would have been needless distractions if they were front on stage. They maligned the current version of the game. I guess I could add Denny McClain to this pack...he much maligned the game after he retired.

So, the game of baseball has changed in the 40+ years I've been a fan. Lowering the height of the mound was one of the biggest changes. I didn't like that change. And I hate the DH in the American League. I can't stand it.

So, in drum corps...the game has changed too. So, yeah, I get what you are all talking about.

After the strike in the 1990s, baseball was all but dead. So, they "juiced" the game up a bit. Now, attendance is up to it's highest level ever. But, some fans never came back after the Dodgers left Brooklyn, or the clear or creme scandal, but hey...I get it. Life and everything in it changes. Some changes are for the better, some for the worse and it all depends on your vantage point which is which.

Sky is falling everybody. Chicken Little said so.

If only DCI could have had the growth rate that MLB baseball has had after the baseball strike in the 90's. Or even in MLB from the 60's to the 90's. Oh well, we can still dream of " what might have been " had other decisions been made

and other courses of actions taken. Maybe it was Drum Corps destiny to ultimately get on a course to take it to eventual self destruction. But I suspect that maybe not.

[Jeff Ream]

I have to argue here. Anyone who knows anything about baseball knows how Ty Cobb was treated in retirement. Same, to an extent, could be said of Pete Rose and Ferguson Jenkins certainly lost the first ballot HOF because of a marijuana conviction.

What do all three of these examples have to do with drum corps...

Well, all would have been needless distractions if they were front on stage. They maligned the current version of the game. I guess I could add Denny McClain to this pack...he much maligned the game after he retired.

So, the game of baseball has changed in the 40+ years I've been a fan. Lowering the height of the mound was one of the biggest changes. I didn't like that change. And I hate the DH in the American League. I can't stand it.

So, in drum corps...the game has changed too. So, yeah, I get what you are all talking about.

After the strike in the 1990s, baseball was all but dead. So, they "juiced" the game up a bit. Now, attendance is up to it's highest level ever. But, some fans never came back after the Dodgers left Brooklyn, or the clear or creme scandal, but hey...I get it. Life and everything in it changes. Some changes are for the better, some for the worse and it all depends on your vantage point which is which.

Sky is falling everybody. Chicken Little said so.

compared to drum corps, baseball has made very little change to the games. DH? 1973. Lowering the mound? what 1969 or so? What real major change has baseball since 1988 when the Cubs started playing night games at home?

and the silence explains why your argument is very, very flawed

[BRASSO]

compared to drum corps, baseball has made very little change to the games. DH? 1973. Lowering the mound? what 1969 or so? What real major change has baseball since 1988 when the Cubs started playing night games at home?

In order for someone to try and make the case that MLB has had the same degree of transformational changes than Drum Corps has had since the 1960's then baseball would have had to have had something like the following changes in the similar time period :

a) have female pitchers ( only Guard had females in Drum Corps in co' ed corps in the mid 60's... not in brass or drum lines

b) change the size of the baseball in both weight , and texture ( brass bugle with slides, changed to a trumpet )

c) change the game from 9 innings to 8 innings ( shows in 60's were 12-13 minutes in length, it's shortened now by 15% )

d) the batters box moved to between 1st base and right field instead of home plate ( Corps used a" starting line" from left to right in 60's, instead of conventional start now without a ' starting line " that is similar to the 60's )

e) baseball umpires positioning split between on field positioning and in the sky boxes positioning to make calls ( 60's judges were on the field, later moved to become split between on field and in the booth )

f) quadrupling of baseball equipment additions allowed.... including the use of optional use of ( say ) softball bats, instead of just bat, ball, glove ( Corps evolution in equipment useage broadened to allow instruments heretofore restricted in useage, ie guitar on the field now an option )

G) baseball players in hot days allowed to wear bermuda shorts in games ( to coincide with change in color guard outfits from 60's to today )

h) change in " 3 strikes and you out " to "throw the ball until he at least hits the ball to someone " ( to coincide with change from the tick system to the build up system )

i) elimination of the national anthmn before games as well as the 7th inning stretch and the singing of " take me out to the ball game " ( to coincide with the elimination of the American Flag tradition and the Color Presentation in Corps )

J) add a 4th base in baseball ( to coincide with the addition of a pre show in Drum Corps )

K) allow every player 10 seconds to curse out an umpire without retribution ( allow narration in Drum Corps to talk to an audience without retribution )

l) allow players to run the bases by going out of the basepaths and not being called out ( allow marchers to cross over the field lines without penalty )

M ) increase the number of players on the field to 12 ( increase the numbers of marchers to 135 from 128 )

N) allow a batter, pitcher, anyone to use a podium ( allow props on the field in Drum Corps )

O) eliminate the umpires ability to check for corked bat, grease on baseball, etc ( eliminate inspections in Drum Corps )

P ) cut the number of MLB games in New York- New Jersey by 300%, while increasing the number of MLB games in the state of Texas by 300 % ( to coincide with the shift in Drum Corps shows regionally over the similar time frame )

Q) allow baseball players to go to any team they want without the need for releases ( to coincide with the elimination of releases in Drum Corps that effectively allows marchers to become free agents )

r) eliminate baseball from live tv ( to coincide with the loss of Drum Corps being shown on live TV anymore )

s) eliminate the opportunity for umpires to huddle together before making a call ( to coincide with judges not conversing on " calls " on the field that are in each judges crossover discipline domain )

t) change in baeball rules to allow the top teams to select the playoff venues, select the world series umpires, etc ( to coincide with the G-7 proposal that would allow the top Corps to select the best venues, hand pick their own judges, etc )

u) change in baseball rules so that baseball bat manufacturers can be owners, ie. no conflict of interests restrictions ( to coincide with no conflict of interest provisions in Drum Corps where owners and judges ( for just one example ) can be in charge of uniform procurements for those in competition )

v) Co-ed players in baseball ( to coincide with the growth of co-ed play in Drum Corps at any position over the years )

W) 2 baseball teams allowed to discriminate on gender, despite coed baseball on the other teams ( to coincide with co-ed Corps competing with single sex Corps ( Madison, Cavs, and the others )

x) the mlb season cut in half in terms of duration ( to coincide with Drum Corps season shortening in the similar time frame

y) eliminate the uniform colors of the umpires ( to coincide with the elimination of standard uniforms for judges )

z) move the Baseball Hall of Fame from Cooperstown, NY (to coincide with the Drum Corps Hall of Fame move. )

Well, I 'll stop now as I 've just gone through the alphabet soup of changes that would be needed to make a legitimate comparison that the breadth, depth, and degree of changes in Major Legue Baseball is in any way, shape, or form comparable to the changes in Drum Corps in the same similar timeframe of the 1960's through to today. What is striking is how LITTLE beseball has changed, compared to Drum Corps, imo.

Edited November 18, 2010 by BRASSO

[garfield]

ummm....like....ummm....wow! Pretty impressive, Brasso.

In order for someone to try and make the case that MLB has had the same degree of transformational changes than Drum Corps has had since the 1960's then baseball would have had to have had something like the following changes in the similar time period :

a) have female pitchers ( only Guard had females in Drum Corps in co' ed corps in the mid 60's... not in brass or drum lines

b) change the size of the baseball in both weight , and texture ( brass bugle with slides, changed to a trumpet )

c) change the game from 9 innings to 8 innings ( shows in 60's were 12-13 minutes in length, it's shortened now by 15% )

d) the batters box moved to between 1st base and right field instead of home plate ( Corps used a" starting line" from left to right in 60's, instead of conventional start now without a ' starting line " that is similar to the 60's )

e) baseball umpires positioning split between on field positioning and in the sky boxes positioning to make calls ( 60's judges were on the field, later moved to become split between on field and in the booth )

f) quadrupling of baseball equipment additions allowed.... including the use of optional use of ( say ) softball bats, instead of just bat, ball, glove ( Corps evolution in equipment useage broadened to allow instruments heretofore restricted in useage, ie guitar on the field now an option )

G) baseball players in hot days allowed to wear bermuda shorts in games ( to coincide with change in color guard outfits from 60's to today )

h) change in " 3 strikes and you out " to "throw the ball until he at least hits the ball to someone " ( to coincide with change from the tick system to the build up system )

i) elimination of the national anthmn before games as well as the 7th inning stretch and the singing of " take me out to the ball game " ( to coincide with the elimination of the American Flag tradition and the Color Presentation in Corps )

J) add a 4th base in baseball ( to coincide with the addition of a pre show in Drum Corps )

K) allow every player 10 seconds to curse out an umpire without retribution ( allow narration in Drum Corps to talk to an audience without retribution )

l) allow players to run the bases by going out of the basepaths and not being called out ( allow marchers to cross over the field lines without penalty )

M ) increase the number of players on the field to 12 ( increase the numbers of marchers to 135 from 128 )

N) allow a batter, pitcher, anyone to use a podium ( allow props on the field in Drum Corps )

O) eliminate the umpires ability to check for corked bat, grease on baseball, etc ( eliminate inspections in Drum Corps )

P ) cut the number of MLB games in New York- New Jersey by 300%, while increasing the number of MLB games in the state of Texas by 300 % ( to coincide with the shift in Drum Corps shows regionally over the similar time frame )

Q) allow baseball players to go to any team they want without the need for releases ( to coincide with the elimination of releases in Drum Corps that effectively allows marchers to become free agents )

r) eliminate baseball from live tv ( to coincide with the loss of Drum Corps being shown on live TV anymore )

s) eliminate the opportunity for umpires to huddle together before making a call ( to coincide with judges not conversing on " calls " on the field that are in each judges crossover discipline domain )

t) change in baeball rules to allow the top teams to select the playoff venues, select the world series umpires, etc ( to coincide with the G-7 proposal that would allow the top Corps to select the best venues, hand pick their own judges, etc )

u) change in baseball rules so that baseball bat manufacturers can be owners, ie. no conflict of interests restrictions ( to coincide with no conflict of interest provisions in Drum Corps where owners and judges ( for just one example ) can be in charge of uniform procurements for those in competition )

v) Co-ed players in baseball ( to coincide with the growth of co-ed play in Drum Corps at any position over the years )

W) 2 baseball teams allowed to discriminate on gender, despite coed baseball on the other teams ( to coincide with co-ed Corps competing with single sex Corps ( Madison, Cavs, and the others )

x) the mlb season cut in half in terms of duration ( to coincide with Drum Corps season shortening in the similar time frame

y) eliminate the uniform colors of the umpires ( to coincide with the elimination of standard uniforms for judges )

z) move the Baseball Hall of Fame from Cooperstown, NY (to coincide with the Drum Corps Hall of Fame move. )

Well, I 'll stop now as I 've just gone through the alphabet soup of changes that would be needed to make a legitimate comparison that the breadth, depth, and degree of changes in Major Legue Baseball is in any way, shape, or form comparable to the changes in Drum Corps in the same similar timeframe of the 1960's through to today. What is striking is how LITTLE beseball has changed, compared to Drum Corps, imo.

[Jeff Ream]

In order for someone to try and make the case that MLB has had the same degree of transformational changes than Drum Corps has had since the 1960's then baseball would have had to have had something like the following changes in the similar time period :

a) have female pitchers ( only Guard had females in Drum Corps in co' ed corps in the mid 60's... not in brass or drum lines

b) change the size of the baseball in both weight , and texture ( brass bugle with slides, changed to a trumpet )

c) change the game from 9 innings to 8 innings ( shows in 60's were 12-13 minutes in length, it's shortened now by 15% )

d) the batters box moved to between 1st base and right field instead of home plate ( Corps used a" starting line" from left to right in 60's, instead of conventional start now without a ' starting line " that is similar to the 60's )

e) baseball umpires positioning split between on field positioning and in the sky boxes positioning to make calls ( 60's judges were on the field, later moved to become split between on field and in the booth )

f) quadrupling of baseball equipment additions allowed.... including the use of optional use of ( say ) softball bats, instead of just bat, ball, glove ( Corps evolution in equipment useage broadened to allow instruments heretofore restricted in useage, ie guitar on the field now an option )

G) baseball players in hot days allowed to wear bermuda shorts in games ( to coincide with change in color guard outfits from 60's to today )

h) change in " 3 strikes and you out " to "throw the ball until he at least hits the ball to someone " ( to coincide with change from the tick system to the build up system )

i) elimination of the national anthmn before games as well as the 7th inning stretch and the singing of " take me out to the ball game " ( to coincide with the elimination of the American Flag tradition and the Color Presentation in Corps )

J) add a 4th base in baseball ( to coincide with the addition of a pre show in Drum Corps )

K) allow every player 10 seconds to curse out an umpire without retribution ( allow narration in Drum Corps to talk to an audience without retribution )

l) allow players to run the bases by going out of the basepaths and not being called out ( allow marchers to cross over the field lines without penalty )

M ) increase the number of players on the field to 12 ( increase the numbers of marchers to 135 from 128 )

N) allow a batter, pitcher, anyone to use a podium ( allow props on the field in Drum Corps )

O) eliminate the umpires ability to check for corked bat, grease on baseball, etc ( eliminate inspections in Drum Corps )

P ) cut the number of MLB games in New York- New Jersey by 300%, while increasing the number of MLB games in the state of Texas by 300 % ( to coincide with the shift in Drum Corps shows regionally over the similar time frame )

Q) allow baseball players to go to any team they want without the need for releases ( to coincide with the elimination of releases in Drum Corps that effectively allows marchers to become free agents )

r) eliminate baseball from live tv ( to coincide with the loss of Drum Corps being shown on live TV anymore )

s) eliminate the opportunity for umpires to huddle together before making a call ( to coincide with judges not conversing on " calls " on the field that are in each judges crossover discipline domain )

t) change in baeball rules to allow the top teams to select the playoff venues, select the world series umpires, etc ( to coincide with the G-7 proposal that would allow the top Corps to select the best venues, hand pick their own judges, etc )

u) change in baseball rules so that baseball bat manufacturers can be owners, ie. no conflict of interests restrictions ( to coincide with no conflict of interest provisions in Drum Corps where owners and judges ( for just one example ) can be in charge of uniform procurements for those in competition )

v) Co-ed players in baseball ( to coincide with the growth of co-ed play in Drum Corps at any position over the years )

W) 2 baseball teams allowed to discriminate on gender, despite coed baseball on the other teams ( to coincide with co-ed Corps competing with single sex Corps ( Madison, Cavs, and the others )

x) the mlb season cut in half in terms of duration ( to coincide with Drum Corps season shortening in the similar time frame

y) eliminate the uniform colors of the umpires ( to coincide with the elimination of standard uniforms for judges )

z) move the Baseball Hall of Fame from Cooperstown, NY (to coincide with the Drum Corps Hall of Fame move. )

Well, I 'll stop now as I 've just gone through the alphabet soup of changes that would be needed to make a legitimate comparison that the breadth, depth, and degree of changes in Major Legue Baseball is in any way, shape, or form comparable to the changes in Drum Corps in the same similar timeframe of the 1960's through to today. What is striking is how LITTLE beseball has changed, compared to Drum Corps, imo.

wow. like this is the all time rebuttal of DCP

[perc2100]

compared to drum corps, baseball has made very little change to the games. DH? 1973. Lowering the mound? what 1969 or so? What real major change has baseball since 1988 when the Cubs started playing night games at home?

and the silence explains why your argument is very, very flawed

I guess a more fair question would be to list the changes baseball has gone through in its first forty years as an organized entity. We can be even more fair and limit that to just MLB. One only needs to really watch DVD 1 of Ken Burns' "Baseball" to see the changes were many. DCI is still fairly 'young' as an organized circuit/governing board of an activity, and they are obviously still trying to find their place in the world. Baseball had many changes as well in their first forty years of existence

[perc2100]

compared to drum corps, baseball has made very little change to the games. DH? 1973. Lowering the mound? what 1969 or so? What real major change has baseball since 1988 when the Cubs started playing night games at home?

and the silence explains why your argument is very, very flawed

I guess a more fair question would be to list the changes baseball has gone through in its first forty years as an organized entity. We can be even more fair and limit that to just MLB. One only needs to really watch DVD 1 of Ken Burns' "Baseball" to see the changes were many. DCI is still fairly 'young' as an organized circuit/governing board of an activity, and they are obviously still trying to find their place in the world. Baseball had many changes as well in their first forty years of existence

[BRASSO]

I guess a more fair question would be to list the changes baseball has gone through in its first forty years as an organized entity. We can be even more fair and limit that to just MLB. One only needs to really watch DVD 1 of Ken Burns' "Baseball" to see the changes were many. DCI is still fairly 'young' as an organized circuit/governing board of an activity, and they are obviously still trying to find their place in the world. Baseball had many changes as well in their first forty years of existence

Baseball is still a game with 9 innings, 4 bases of equal rectangular distance, a pitcher, a catcher, 9 players on the field, in mostly same uniforms ( maybe a bit tighter ), a baseball of same height, weight, texture, a baseball bat still made of wood ( the heresey proposal of allowing aluminum bats repeatedly shot down ), the gloves are leather with stringed ties, infield practice of routine plays mostly unchanged, how one does a double play mostly unchanged, batters box same size, strike zone only slightly altered, 4 balls are still a walk, 3 strikes is still a strike out, the dugouts are still positioned adjacent to home plate n same area, relief pitchers still warm up in a bullpen, the 7th inning stretch is still with us, bunting is still bunting, stealing a base is still stealing a base, coaches can still walk out onto the field and talk to a pitcher during an inning, we still have extra innings, there still is no time limitation on baseball games, there still are no ties ( always a game winner declared ), and a million other fundamental things that have NOT changed since Abner Doubleday was given credit for inventing America's Pastime game.

Has there been changes in baseball since it's inception ? Sure. Have those changes been as radical and transformational as the changes in Drum Corps ? Of course not. The game of baseball looks remarkably the same as it did in the 1880's, except for cosmetic changes, here and there. The game has not fundamentally been altered at all. The contrast with the Drum and Bugle Corps of ( say ) 1927 with that of 2010 is beyond that of recognition. One can not reasonably make a compelling case that the changes in ( say ) baseball is akin to that of the radical transformation within the Drum Corps movement...... take the basic component of the game of " baseball "... the baseball itself. Take a baseball from 1927 and a baseball from 2010. Look at the 2 of them. They are remarkably similar, right down to the cross seam stitching. The baseball from 2010 will feel a tad bit harder, the stitching tigher. But other than that, they are essentially and fundamentally the same. Take a good look at the two of them. Hold them in your hands. Compare them. Then go compare the baseball bats from 1927 and 2010 as well. Look at how more similar than disimilar the baseball bats are. NOW .... take the basic component of the Drum Corps, the bugle from 1927. Then take the " bugle " from 2010. look at them closely. Compare the two. Hold them both in your hands. Take your time. Dwell on it a bit. Then go and compare a snare drum from 1927 and a snare drum from 2010. Put the sling on both, and play around with the 2 of them. look at them closely. Listen to the sound of the two drums and how the drum sticks respond when used with both in your hands. Now... come back 24 hours later after this exercise and try and make a compelling case here that the game of " baseball " has had similar and comparable changes over the years as that of the Drum and Bugle Corps movement.

Edited November 18, 2010 by BRASSO

[Tom Brace]

If only DCI could have had the growth rate that MLB baseball has had after the baseball strike in the 90's. Or even in MLB from the 60's to the 90's. Oh well, we can still dream of " what might have been " had other decisions been made

and other courses of actions taken. Maybe it was Drum Corps destiny to ultimately get on a course to take it to eventual self destruction. But I suspect that maybe not.

Nah...drum corps is slowly ebbing...entropy.

At one point no matter what changes are made...it will become less popular.

What many people don't understand is taking drum corps back to a model that worked/or not in the 1980s or 1990s isn't going to help either.

How many typewriters out there? Bueller?