Questions for the Dinos!

[MsBusDriver]

I was watching a video of the 1971 Troopers the other day and noticed that the rifles started marching before the musicians did, the gunman ignored the rifles and shot the pistol when the musicians started marching/playing. I think the shot signaled the execution (tic) judges to start judging. GE judges would have started with the rifles. This is pre DCI so not sure how long this practice continued.

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone. In 1971 we were still under American Legion/VFW rules. In previous years ('70 and before), the whole corps started on the left side of the starting line (left end zone). The first gunshot (timing/judging) did not start until the first member (Guard, drums, horns) set foot over the starting line. I believe that 1971 was the first year that the Color Guard was allowed to set up on the field on the right side of the starting line. But the timing/judging gun still didn't go off until the first member from the left side of the starting line put their foot over it.

A bit convoluted , but I think you can get the idea.

Edited September 4, 2010 by MsBusDriver

[wvu80]

4. Up until 1980 grounding of equipment was only allowed during "stop" time (9 minutes of the show had to be in motion). In 1980 only tympani only were allowed to be grounded for the whole show. Other instruments were grounded in 1982.

Kilts were the first junior corps to use concert timpani, in 1978, and he still had to mark time in portions of the show. I'm pretty sure 79 was the first year a keyboard was grounded permanently, and it was the Guardsmen. BD had concert timps in 1980, and the Crossmen had a concert vibraphone as well as roto-toms and grounded marching timps with bongos. By the next year, over half of the top twelve had a grounded setup of some sort, with a no-wheels policy in some form or another, I believe. (BD had no penalties at Montreal, and their timp player once said in this thread that his drums had the wheels taken off.) (Tommy Timp)

I've got in my notes that it started in 1981, the same year all the top six corps scored over 90.00 the first time. However, it got off to a slow start. My copy of the 1982 DCI program book has photos (from 1981) of concert vibraphones and xylophones as well as concert timpani, though most corps were still marching everything. The 1983 program book shows there was a definite switch to grounded percussion in 1982.

If you check the 1978 Blue Devils (as I just did) on the stand still tune, "Legend of the One Eyed Sailor" the 5 timps were prominently displayed grounded front and center on the 50. One guy played them while the other four guys who carried the beasties in kneeled near the sideline and played cowbell, tambourine, etc. After the tune the guys hooked back up and marched them.

All the players and equipment were in the field of play, so technically there was no "pit" which was outside the lines. The full pit area came later, which I think Boo identified as 1982,

So actually, I think all of us are right.

Edited September 4, 2010 by wvu80

[Michael Boo]

If you check the 1978 Blue Devils (as I just did) on the stand still tune, "Legend of the One Eyed Sailor" the 5 timps were prominently displayed grounded front and center on the 50. One guy played them while the other four guys who carried the beasties in kneeled near the sideline and played cowbell, tambourine, etc. After the tune the guys hooked back up and marched them.

All the players and equipment were in the field of play, so technically there was no "pit" which was outside the lines. The full pit area came later, which I think Boo identified as 1982,

So actually, I think all of us are right.

The timp were grounded for the concert tune, which was allowable under the rules at the time. But grounded equipment could not be left on the field during the entire show, had to arrive and leave being carried, and (if I'm remembering this correctly) could only be grounded during the concert standstill.

For those of you too new to know what a concert standstill is; corps used to stand still for an entire number. I kid you not. In 1980, Santa Clara Vanguard changed the entire formation during the concert standstill and fans were shocked. (This is also the year SCV introduced asymmetrical drill.) But the corps stood still before and after the formation change. (Other corps had moved a few people here and there during the concert standstill, but the overall form didn't change all that much.)

And for those who know nothing except corps now moving at all times; corps were not penalized for standing still for three or so minutes during a show. It was expected.

[wvu80]

The timp were grounded for the concert tune, which was allowable under the rules at the time. But grounded equipment could not be left on the field during the entire show, had to arrive and leave being carried, and (if I'm remembering this correctly) could only be grounded during the concert standstill.

(respectful snip)

And for those who know nothing except corps now moving at all times; corps were not penalized for standing still for three or so minutes during a show. It was expected.

And if I might expound...

The standstill was not only expected, but it was a part of corps strategy of how to achieve a "perfect" score. Since a "tic" was a mistake and a deduction, once you start 128 marchers in motion, there was the potential for 128 mistakes. Standing still eliminated that, and was the "safe" way to avoid getting a deduction.

Once the tic system was eliminated in 1983 (partially in 83, fully in 84), corps were not penalized for taking chances during the "concert" tune. Shows became more interesting and corps were rewarded for doing interesting things since points were scored for "building up."

Edited September 4, 2010 by wvu80

[wvu80]

Horns: I'll let horn players address that one.

Drums:

• Mylar heads tuned lower.
  
• 15" snare drums - I played a 16" snare for two years.
  
• Higher stick height - you had to put more energy into the stroke to get useful rebound.
  
• Heavier sticks.
  
• Different style - Flams, flams, flams. Single sevens (aka single sixes). Swiss Army triplets. Tap rolls (these may still be around today. My hearing isn't what it used to be).
  

Nice list, but you missed the one most important part; the drummers. A 12 man snare line was considered the "ultimate", and 12 good snare drummers could put out some volume.

But if you check stick heights, they are consistently low except for accents.

And clean equals good (and loud).

Edited September 4, 2010 by wvu80

[MsBusDriver]

The standstill was not only expected, but it was a part of corps strategy of how to achieve a "perfect" score. Since a "tic" was a mistake and a deduction, once you start 128 marchers in motion, there was the potential for 128 mistakes. Standing still eliminated that, and was the "safe" way to avoid getting a deduction.

Just a little disagreement with this statement. Even standing still, there was a potential for "tics". Feet not at fourty-five degree angle, heels not aligned, elbows not "up" correctly, horn positions, intervals not set perfectly. Not to mention all the tics the Guard could get for timing, hand positions, etc, etc for equipment work while standing still. Tics could always be counted on from the first gunshot to the last when either moving around the field or standing still. Hours and hours were spent trying to perfect even the most simple things because it was those simple things being ticked that could make or break a win.

[The Oz]

Nice list, but you missed the one most important part; the drummers. A 12 man snare line was considered the "ultimate", and 12 good snare drummers could put out some volume.

But if you check stick heights, they are consistently low except for accents.

And clean equals good (and loud).

Go back further. Waaaaaay back. Three snares, three tenors, two bass, two cymbals. And they could clearly be heard over a 40 to 50 person horn line.

And I would argue about the stick height. We were taught with quite a bit of forearm movement. A year or two ago the Renegades taped a video camera to a snare drum's navel. (I didn't want to know either.) I was amazed at the closeness of the sticks to the head throughout the performance.

And don't get me started on clean = loud. That is utter balderdash.

[KeithHall]

Watched a few 70's shows today and I have some questions that I'm sure many members of the helpful DCP community can answer (not sarcasm)

1. Why did the judge shoot a pistol into the air during the Scouts 75 show? (1 minute warning???)

2. What is a color pre?

Color presentation was a patriotic piece of music, usually brought the A section down to feature them.

3. When did the mark time go "out of fashion"?

4. What was the first year pit was on the sideline?

5. What type of horn was used in the 70's?

G/F Valve/Rotor until 1975 (I believe) when two valves were introduced.

6. What was the horn line size (on average)?

Depends on the corps. Top 12 corps would have 6 to 8 contras if that helps.

7. How are most of the hornlines and marching percussion so darn loud?

Most of these questions are pertaining to 70's drum corps.

Please help edumacate me.

[Dave]

And if I might expound...

The standstill was not only expected, but it was a part of corps strategy of how to achieve a "perfect" score. Since a "tic" was a mistake and a deduction, once you start 128 marchers in motion, there was the potential for 128 mistakes. Standing still eliminated that, and was the "safe" way to avoid getting a deduction.

Once the tic system was eliminated in 1983 (partially in 83, fully in 84), corps were not penalized for taking chances during the "concert" tune. Shows became more interesting and corps were rewarded for doing interesting things since points were scored for "building up."

Well, no, not really. The reason corps shows were set up the way they were was because it simulated a parade--you enter from the left playing a tune, there's another song that carries you to the feature piece (the concert tune) where the performing group is halted, then a tune that carries you back to your movement formation, and finally a song that carries you out of the competition area. Corps didn't just decide "Oh, we want a chance to play without getting ticked visually," especially since, as noted above, they still could be.

[SCV Biker]

I've got in my notes that it started in 1981, the same year all the top six corps scored over 90.00 the first time. However, it got off to a slow start. My copy of the 1982 DCI program book has photos (from 1981) of concert vibraphones and xylophones as well as concert timpani, though most corps were still marching everything. The 1983 program book shows there was a definite switch to grounded percussion in 1982.

As far as I can recall, the only two corps to march a completely clean sideline including marching tymps in 1982 were 2-7 and Valley Fever out of Modesto, CA.