JimF-LowBari Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) I will say this, though: I think it is unwise for those who don't experience real bigotry or racism to spout that there is not a lot of racism. Not saying there is racism or prejudice involved in drum corps (although clearly the activity in its modern form is designed to cater to middle/upper-class, affluent young adults due to the costs involved). I'm just saying dismissing racism and prejudice in general is a naive and foolish gesture Didn't notice any when I was in corps...... But years later..... Holy #### I heard stuff that went on behind the scenes during my era. And that was on both side of the Mason-Dixon line... Edited May 30, 2014 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Appears this topic was resurrected from years ago. Are all the comments still valid? How many director positions have been filled since first post? Out of 22 World Class corps, there is now one female director -- Vicki MacFarlane of the Colts. Of the 25 Open Class corps, there are now zero female directors. So, yeah, it's basically the same. As for turnover, I'm not sure. Glancing through the names for World Class there've been maybe five director changes since 2010? I could be wrong about that. Spirit, Phantom, Madison, Colts, Boston? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Out of 22 World Class corps, there is now one female director -- Vicki MacFarlane of the Colts. Of the 25 Open Class corps, there are now zero female directors. So, yeah, it's basically the same. As for turnover, I'm not sure. Glancing through the names for World Class there've been maybe five director changes since 2010? I could be wrong about that. Spirit, Phantom, Madison, Colts, Boston? these arent jobs that change all that often. I mean look at guys like Gibbs and Hopkins who have decades with their corps. regardless of race or gender, it takes a special person to do this job. it's not one many people seek coming out of college Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 these arent jobs that change all that often. I mean look at guys like Gibbs and Hopkins who have decades with their corps. regardless of race or gender, it takes a special person to do this job. it's not one many people seek coming out of college I'm was just laying out the facts. But presuming a sexism-free hiring process, then if there aren't any "special" women or minorities available to be hired, then we'll have to look deeper to find out why the ratio is so skewed. I'm okay with accepting historical biases as part of the deal when looking at senior leadership positions like this. But I also like to think that at some point we have to stop making excuses for a 46-to-1 sex ratio among corps directors. Here's a question I don't know the answer to: Where do new corps directors come from? eg, What experience does a typical first-time corps director hold? My guess is teaching, design, and leadership positions in that corps or other corps. What are the sex ratios in those positions? Where do those people come from? I'm also curious if my memory is correct about the number of corps that have turned over directors since this topic was posted. If I'm right about five directorship changes since 2010, then we have an 80/20 ratio. So that's an improvement. Notably, however, Vicki MacFarlane was the Colt Cadets director prior to moving up to the Colts, and she was replaced by a man, so the overall DCI ratio has not changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 honestly....i know we discussed this elsewhere, but i have hunch women aren't interested... they aren't dumb enough to want the job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) Here's a question I don't know the answer to: Where do new corps directors come from? eg, What experience does a typical first-time corps director hold? My guess is teaching, design, and leadership positions in that corps or other corps. What are the sex ratios in those positions? Where do those people come from? Had roughly the same thought..... what percentages of females/minorites are in the music fields? This includes performing, teaching and students. Worked in the computer field since 1980..... from what I've seen the percentage of females has gone way up but minorities not up nearly as much. LOL... in the late 70s the percentage of females in my comp classes was never over 10%. As for minorities we had Mr Lam(m?) but place was kinda white bread. Have a friend who got a math degree in the early 1980s. This person was easy to pick out IIRC as she was the ONLY female who got a math degree there that year. Edited May 30, 2014 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I tend to think the Board of Directors is more important. There are far more people to count, for one thing. And membership is often by invitation, has far shorter terms, is not as competitive, and doesn't have specific or strict requirements in terms of experience. So how are the World Class corps doing there? Arizona Academy 2 out of 12 http://arizonaacademy.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=78 Blue Devils 4 out of 15 http://bluedevils.org/bod/ Blue Knights 2 out of 12 http://www.bknights.org/bknights.org/about/BoardOfDirectors.asp Blue Stars 0 out of 12 http://www.bluestars.org/about/board_of_directors.php Bluecoats 3 out of 15 http://www.bluecoats.com/about_board.asp Boston Crusaders 6 out of 28 http://www.bostoncrusaders.com/about-us/board The Cadets (Youth Education in the Arts) 3 out of 15 http://yea.org/home/about Carolina Crown 0 out of 12 http://www.carolinacrown.org/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=119&Itemid=529 Cascades (Northwest Youth Music Association) 5 out of 13 http://www.cascadesdrumcorps.org/staff/ The Cavaliers 0 or 1 out of 15 http://www.cavaliers.org/about-us/board-directors Colts 3 out of 17 http://www.colts.org/boards.asp Crossmen ?? no info found Jersey Surf ?? no info found Madison Scouts 0 out of 16 http://madisonscouts.org/Madison_Scouts/About.html Mandarins ?? no info found Oregon Crusaders 3 out of 7 http://oregoncrusaders.org/staff/ Pacific Crest 3 out of 17 http://www.pacific-crest.org/about-pacific-crest-youth-arts-organization/pcyao-board-of-directors/ Phantom Regiment 3 out of 16 http://www.regiment.org/about/board.cfm Pioneer 3 out of 6 http://www.pioneer-corps.org/about/pioneer-board.html Santa Clara Vanguard 3 out of 25 http://www.scvanguard.org/about/?tab=board Spirit of Atlanta 2 out of 5 http://spiritdrumcorps.org/faculty-staff/ Troopers 4 out of 12 http://troopersdrumcorps.org/aboutus/board 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Had roughly the same thought..... what percentages of females/minorites are in the music fields? This includes performing, teaching and students. Here's an interesting article examining gender ratios in traditional orchestras with lots of numbers. Seems like 25-40% women among top orchestras is common with some outliers cited down to two women in an entire orchestra for the Vienna Philharmonic, but youth orchestras generally evenly balanced: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/features/where-are-all-the-female-musicians-8343938.html And here's a recorded Twitter-fight between a journalist who wrote about gender ratios among soloists for the Vancouver Symphony and the VSO's conductor: http://www.musicaltoronto.org/2014/03/23/breaking-news-cbc-classical-music-gender-equality-article-sparks-outrage-from-vsos-bramwell-tovey/ Here's a fascinating master's thesis about gender in band directing. The raw data starts on the 11th page where we see that in 2001 MENC recorded over 26,000 female music teachers and over 22,000 male music teachers, but at the middle- and high-school band director level, the numbers are 14653 men to 7134 women, over 2 to 1: http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6558&context=etd There's a ton more fascinating detail in that paper. Choral director ratios, orchestra director ratios, gender-instrument cultural associations... So yes, there's a large majority of men in top level director roles (the high school band director numbers skew more masculine), but it comes nowhere close to DCI's ratio. If it's not clear, I find all of this endlessly fascinating. Worked in the computer field since 1980..... from what I've seen the percentage of females has gone way up but minorities not up nearly as much. LOL... in the late 70s the percentage of females in my comp classes was never over 10%. As for minorities we had Mr Lam(m?) but place was kinda white bread. Have a friend who got a math degree in the early 1980s. This person was easy to pick out IIRC as she was the ONLY female who got a math degree there that year. I had a similar ratio in my CS program in the mid-90s. Interestingly, though, data I've seen recently shows that CS ratios are even more skewed now than they were when you or I were in school. But then a lot of programmers come out of business schools, so maybe MIS/CIS/BIT programs are more balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I had a similar ratio in my CS program in the mid-90s. Interestingly, though, data I've seen recently shows that CS ratios are even more skewed now than they were when you or I were in school. But then a lot of programmers come out of business schools, so maybe MIS/CIS/BIT programs are more balanced. True lot more options in training compared to the past. When I graduated from the local Community College with a "Data Processing" degree I wanted to continue for a 4 year in Computer Science. Maybe the advisor was clueless but (supposedly) only two halfways affordable PA colleges were offering a 4 yr CS degree, So either Indiana, PA or Penn State and both are "less than urban". Just a difference of farming area or near the coal mines and Christmas Tree farms. Ended up working with a guy who did the business school route in Pittsburgh. Of course decades later everything I learne is obsolete (unless they try to stick me in the COBOL shop). And I'm close enough to retirement I can tell my bosses if they want me trained it better be online at my desk..... yeah Internet..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) I tend to think the Board of Directors is more important. There are far more people to count, for one thing. And membership is often by invitation, has far shorter terms, is not as competitive, and doesn't have specific or strict requirements in terms of experience. So how are the World Class corps doing there? Arizona Academy 2 out of 12 http://arizonaacademy.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=78 Blue Devils 4 out of 15 http://bluedevils.org/bod/ Blue Knights 2 out of 12 http://www.bknights.org/bknights.org/about/BoardOfDirectors.asp Blue Stars 0 out of 12 http://www.bluestars.org/about/board_of_directors.php Bluecoats 3 out of 15 http://www.bluecoats.com/about_board.asp Boston Crusaders 6 out of 28 http://www.bostoncrusaders.com/about-us/board The Cadets (Youth Education in the Arts) 3 out of 15 http://yea.org/home/about Carolina Crown 0 out of 12 http://www.carolinacrown.org/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=119&Itemid=529 Cascades (Northwest Youth Music Association) 5 out of 13 http://www.cascadesdrumcorps.org/staff/ The Cavaliers 0 or 1 out of 15 http://www.cavaliers.org/about-us/board-directors Colts 3 out of 17 http://www.colts.org/boards.asp Crossmen ?? no info found Jersey Surf ?? no info found Madison Scouts 0 out of 16 http://madisonscouts.org/Madison_Scouts/About.html Mandarins ?? no info found Oregon Crusaders 3 out of 7 http://oregoncrusaders.org/staff/ Pacific Crest 3 out of 17 http://www.pacific-crest.org/about-pacific-crest-youth-arts-organization/pcyao-board-of-directors/ Phantom Regiment 3 out of 16 http://www.regiment.org/about/board.cfm Pioneer 3 out of 6 http://www.pioneer-corps.org/about/pioneer-board.html Santa Clara Vanguard 3 out of 25 http://www.scvanguard.org/about/?tab=board Spirit of Atlanta 2 out of 5 http://spiritdrumcorps.org/faculty-staff/ Troopers 4 out of 12 http://troopersdrumcorps.org/aboutus/board Good research data here. It does demonstrate that for whatever reason, DCI continues to be by and large an ol boy network. People can either credit me or( blame me if so inclined) for first bringing up this topic of this lack of women in positions of leadership in DCI on DCP earlier this offseason. Maybe Women don't want all these leadership positions as has been put forth as a rationale for these low numbers... but of course these are mostly male posters here on DCP speculating on the reasons for this widespread lack of gender diversity within the key decision making leadership positions within DCI. It should be pointed out that these male DCP posters might be entirely correct in their speculation for the reason for this too ... but until we hear from the Women themselves, we really can't be so sure, imo. Edited May 30, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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