Corps Directors

[Big Bad Bari]

You're still on the micro.

So please do come in and give me your "Big Picture" socio economic explanation as to why this is... You know sometimes things just are... no reason... no conspiracy... no nothing... They just are...

[DrillmanSop06]

So please do come in and give me your "Big Picture" socio economic explanation as to why this is... You know sometimes things just are... no reason... no conspiracy... no nothing... They just are...

Point being drum corps is an activity that is inherently geared towards a class of power and privilege. It privileges certain values, mostly middle class values, and making it into a drum corps relies on your being able to navigate the "hidden rules" of this class. Individuals who are under-resourced and do not have access to these values are punished on a routine basis in school settings for being unable to comprehend the "hidden rules" of the middle class upon which our public education system is based. Take this a step further to an activity that privileges certain aesthetic values and that costs a great deal, and you have an activity that is inherently geared towards power and privilege. To borrow your phrasing, there is no conspiracy, no nothing, it just is.

And you're the one who's going to start a joint scholastic program? You better get up on some of this stuff if you're going to be working with kids. Seriously. These are basic, basic Education 101 kinds of things.

Edited October 30, 2010 by DrillmanSop06

[Big Bad Bari]

Point being drum corps is an activity that is inherently geared towards a class of power and privilege. It privileges certain values, mostly middle class values, and making it into a drum corps relies on your being able to navigate the "hidden rules" of this class. Individuals who are under-resourced and do not have access to these values are punished on a routine basis in school settings for being unable to comprehend the "hidden rules" of the middle class upon which our public education system is based. Take this a step further to an activity that privileges certain aesthetic values and that costs a great deal, and you have an activity that is inherently geared towards power and privilege. To borrow your phrasing, there is no conspiracy, no nothing, it just is.

And you're the one who's going to start a joint scholastic program? You better get up on some of this stuff if you're going to be working with kids. Seriously. These are basic, basic Education 101 kinds of things.

LOL

I'll try to my best navigate my way through the world you see as so very depriving of those who are not of priveledge... Although what you have to say are the familiar cryings of those who are willing to go ALMOST far enough to grasp the brass ring! "Oh I would have made it but for the INVISIBLE HIDDEN RULES" You may be playing Devils Advocate on this but it also may be your personal experiences in life that have caused you to compartmentalize your thoughts in a manner that you see the world as closed rather than a smorgasboard of opportunity. Unless you would like to describe EXACTLY what these "hidden rules" are, and how they limit the ability of others to excell, I would submit that the experiences you are assuming that people have had, due to the SOCIETAL ISSUES you sort of mention but not with specifics, are merely of their own making... This is usually the case! "I made no friends" OR "It was too hard" and it ends up playing out as a societal issue due to the "ROUND THE CAMPFIRE" method of communication. Somehow we rarely hear of those who "made their own beds" in this type of situation.

I ALREADY HAVE AND DO WORK WITH THE KIDS... It is my OWN CHILDRENS High School Band program through which I have passed 4 kids of my own. It seemed to work out just fine with the exception that most kids are not interested in Drum Corps. the ones that choose to go for the payoff, Get something out of it... It is a "you get out of it, what you put into it" activity, No more no less. I do not share your "Oh, it's somebody elses fault" point of view.

I asked for specifics and got diatribe... Now that is typical of folks perpetuating a NON argument as though it were one.

[DrillmanSop06]

LOL

I'll try to my best navigate my way through the world you see as so very depriving of those who are not of priveledge... Although what you have to say are the familiar cryings of those who are willing to go ALMOST far enough to grasp the brass ring! "Oh I would have made it but for the INVISIBLE HIDDEN RULES" You may be playing Devils Advocate on this but it also may be your personal experiences in life that have caused you to compartmentalize your thoughts in a manner that you see the world as closed rather than a smorgasboard of opportunity. Unless you would like to describe EXACTLY what these "hidden rules" are, and how they limit the ability of others to excell, I would submit that the experiences you are assuming that people have had, due to the SOCIETAL ISSUES you sort of mention but not with specifics, are merely of their own making... This is usually the case! "I made no friends" OR "It was too hard" and it ends up playing out as a societal issue due to the "ROUND THE CAMPFIRE" method of communication. Somehow we rarely hear of those who "made their own beds" in this type of situation.

I ALREADY HAVE AND DO WORK WITH THE KIDS... It is my OWN CHILDRENS High School Band program through which I have passed 4 kids of my own. It seemed to work out just fine with the exception that most kids are not interested in Drum Corps. the ones that choose to go for the payoff, Get something out of it... It is a "you get out of it, what you put into it" activity, No more no less. I do not share your "Oh, it's somebody elses fault" point of view.

I asked for specifics and got diatribe... Now that is typical of folks perpetuating a NON argument as though it were one.

http://www.ahaprocess.com/School_Programs/....html#framework

[oldschooldbc]

Individuals who are under-resourced and do not have access to these values are punished on a routine basis in school settings for being unable to comprehend the "hidden rules" of the middle class upon which our public education system is based.

I saw a glaring example of this last weekend.

Last weekend was the semi-finals of the state marching contest in Texas. (It is called the "area round" - whatever.) Bands were competing for a trip to the Alamodome in San Antonio, for a trip to the state finals in November. My son's band competed in an area with really 2 classes of schools: 1) rich, suburban, primarily white schools, and 2) poor, urban, primarily ethnic schools.

I'll give you one guess, as to which group won. Not one of the bands from the poor, suburban school districts advanced. The top 10 all came from rich, suburban school districts. And to be totally honest and objective, that was a fair result, based upon the performances on the field. The 10 bands that made finals were simply better, both musically and visually.

Now, project that forward to drum corps: if the members from the poor, urban school bands can't even make the finals of a HS band show - how are they going to qualify for drum corps? Seriously? Would they even get invited back, after the first audition camp?

Music education, in many of the urban school districts in this country, has really deteriorated badly in recent years. And as we have documented in this forum, on many occasions, drum corps are now counting on HS programs, to provide them with members. Virtually no drum corps take novice musicians today (with the notable exception of Pio, and some of the OC outfits.) So no, we aren't going to see very many "3 foot, African-American, lesbian, cross-dressing individuals with a lisp" with "Super Human Talent" coming to drum corps tryouts - because they just don't exist.

There was a time when drum corps was novice music education in this country. That time was 40-50 years ago. Drum corps has now conceeded that responsibility to HS programs. Unfortunately, a great many school districts have abrogated that responsibility, and now, no one is doing that for those youth.

So no drum corps needs to put up a sign, saying "3 foot, African-American, lesbians with Super Human Talent" need not apply. They don't have to. Instead, drum corps needs take back its responsibility, to provide some form of novice music education. I have advocated that before in these boards, and I will continue to do that.

Edited October 30, 2010 by oldschooldbc

[DrillmanSop06]

I saw a glaring example of this last weekend.

Last weekend was the semi-finals of the state marching contest in Texas. (It is called the "area round" - whatever.) Bands were competing for a trip to the Alamodome in San Antonio, for a trip to the state finals in November. My son's band competed in an area with really 2 classes of schools: 1) rich, suburban, primarily white schools, and 2) poor, urban, primarily ethnic schools.

I'll give you one guess, as to which group won. Not one of the bands from the poor, suburban school districts advanced. The top 10 all came from rich, suburban school districts. And to be totally honest and objective, that was a fair result, based upon the performances on the field. The 10 bands that made finals were simply better, both musically and visually.

Now, project that forward to drum corps: if the members from the poor, urban school bands can't even make the finals of a HS band show - how are they going to qualify for drum corps? Seriously? Would they even get invited back, after the first audition camp?

Music education, in many of the urban school districts in this country, has really deteriorated badly in recent years. And as we have documented in this forum, on many occasions, drum corps are now counting on HS programs, to provide them with members. Virtually no drum corps take novice musicians today (with the notable exception of Pio, and some of the OC outfits.) So no, we aren't going to see very many "3 foot, African-American, lesbian, cross-dressing individuals with a lisp" with "Super Human Talent" coming to drum corps tryouts - because they just don't exist.

There was a time when drum corps was novice music education in this country. That time was 40-50 years ago. Drum corps has now conceeded that responsibility to HS programs. Unfortunately, a great many school districts have abrogated that responsibility, and now, no one is doing that for those youth.

So no drum corps needs to put up a sign, saying "3 foot, African-American, lesbians with Super Human Talent" need not apply. They don't have to. Instead, drum corps needs take back its responsibility, to provide some form of novice music education. I have advocated that before in these boards, and I will continue to do that.

Thank you for understanding what is a very real condition. Often, those of privilege cannot necessarily easily comprehend these issues simply because of their assumptions about the world based on their background. Not their fault by any means.

[garfield]

Point being drum corps is an activity that is inherently geared towards a class of power and privilege. It privileges certain values, mostly middle class values, and making it into a drum corps relies on your being able to navigate the "hidden rules" of this class. Individuals who are under-resourced and do not have access to these values are punished on a routine basis in school settings for being unable to comprehend the "hidden rules" of the middle class upon which our public education system is based. Take this a step further to an activity that privileges certain aesthetic values and that costs a great deal, and you have an activity that is inherently geared towards power and privilege. To borrow your phrasing, there is no conspiracy, no nothing, it just is.

And you're the one who's going to start a joint scholastic program? You better get up on some of this stuff if you're going to be working with kids. Seriously. These are basic, basic Education 101 kinds of things.

Drillman, you and I haven't always seen eye to eye, so don't take this personally, please. What, specifically, do you identify as being the "hidden rules" of the middle class?

I can think of several surface definitions of middle class "rules", but I'd like to hear what your definition is.

Further, I'd like to hear what barriers are in place that prevents one from becoming part of that "middle class" you envisage.

Honest discussion; please don't take it as a challenge or attack, for I mean it as neither.

[soccerguy315]

My experience working in higher ed has led me to believe it looks more like this:

Person A has $100. School has $1,000,000, most of which comes from returns on investment, fundraising, grants, and so forth and not tuition. Person B has $0.

Person A gives $100 dollars to School. School has $1,000,100. Person B has $0.

School gives $5 to Person B (promptly giving it back to the university), who funds the rest of his education with usurious student loans. Person A has $0. Thanks to kickbacks from Person B's loan companies, School has $1,000,205. Person B has negative $100.

Somehow I'm just not sure that these things work the same way in drum corps. But it's good to see you did well in your undergrad econ classes.

not if the college is funding the grants... obviously outside loans change it up somewhat

[soccerguy315]

So no drum corps needs to put up a sign, saying "3 foot, African-American, lesbians with Super Human Talent" need not apply. They don't have to. Instead, drum corps needs take back its responsibility, to provide some form of novice music education. I have advocated that before in these boards, and I will continue to do that.

I have posted on here before that drum corps is mostly upper middle class white kids, and some people got angry, but I'm pretty sure it's true. That said, why is it drum corps' responsibility to teach kids how to play instruments?

[oldschooldbc]

I have posted on here before that drum corps is mostly upper middle class white kids, and some people got angry, but I'm pretty sure it's true. That said, why is it drum corps' responsibility to teach kids how to play instruments?

I guess we need to step into a time machine, and turn the the dial all the way back as far as it can go.....back to the end of World War I.

Believe it or not, this actually was how drum corps got started in this country - as a form of novice music education. They were started by VFW/AL posts, or churches, as a way to a) have music for parades, community events, and flag ceremonies, and b) teach the fundamentals of music to youth in the community. In many parts of the country, this was the primary form of music education. In many communities, many students received no music education whatsoever at school; they got it on the afternoons and Saturdays, at their local VFW or church hall, with their drum corps.

Fast-forward to the 1960s/1970s. HS music programs expand rapidly in the post-WWII era. This shifted the burden of music education away from drum corps, and their sponsoring units. Eventually, DCI is formed, removing responsibility for the activity entirely from VFW/AL/CYO. In the 1970's/1980's, HS program begin to focus more on competition, in addition to their role in music education. BOA is eventually formed, and competition between HS programs expanded from a local and state level, to a national level.

Fast-Forward to today. Drum corps are primarily about competition; their role as music educators has taken a back seat. Most drum corps put no effort whatsoever into novice education; most drum corps expect their MMs to show up fully prepared for their first camp. At most corps, if you show up for your first camp, and can't march and play like a pro, you're cut. HS music programs have separated into 2 categories: 1) strong, competitive programs from rich, suburban school districts; 2) weak, ineffective, non-competitive programs from poor, urban school districts. Drum corps draw almost all their membership from the first category. In effect, strong HS band programs function as the "feeder programs", to provide talent to the drum corps.

The situation has basically inverted entirely from where it was, circa 1925. The institution of drum corps today does not fulfill the role, for which it was formed nearly a century ago. That is sad reality, and I honestly don't know what we can do about it - unless there is a sea change in this institution.

Edited October 30, 2010 by oldschooldbc