Changes at SCV

[Abbevillekid26]

First of all, 1999 SCV and 2008 PR did not even win brass. 1984 Cadets did...3-way tie with SCV and BD. So I have my Jim Ott. I'm happy to share it with BD...they were completely awesome, and should've been #1, alone,then SCV, then PR, then Cadets (I guess...didn't hear anyone else)

I have no problem being objective, especially after 26 years. The Promise of Living from 1984 will go down as one of the best "pushes" of all time. La Fiesta will go down as one the best "concerts" ever. Cadets' Tonight was transcendent overall, setting standards for design and coordination that some modern corps still can't match. Cadets deserved the win!

I already said I'm jealous that y'all can listen to Cadets 84 and hear excellence. I also explained why I can't. I don't know where else to go from here, except to invite you over for some beer and critical listening sessions. I'm in NE Ohio...where are y'all?

I understand. I apologize for the ad hominem but I guess we do not hear the same thing. I'm in Philly for the time being but that does sound enticing.

[supersop]

First of all, 1999 SCV and 2008 PR did not even win brass. 1984 Cadets did...3-way tie with SCV and BD. So I have my Jim Ott. I'm happy to share it with BD...they were completely awesome, and should've been #1, alone,then SCV, then PR, then Cadets (I guess...didn't hear anyone else)

I have no problem being objective, especially after 26 years. The Promise of Living from 1984 will go down as one of the best "pushes" of all time. La Fiesta will go down as one the best "concerts" ever. Cadets' Tonight was transcendent overall, setting standards for design and coordination that some modern corps still can't match. Cadets deserved the win!

I already said I'm jealous that y'all can listen to Cadets 84 and hear excellence. I also explained why I can't. I don't know where else to go from here, except to invite you over for some beer and critical listening sessions. I'm in NE Ohio...where are y'all?

I'm just up the road in Michigan. I think the things that were awarded in Garfields case was the "DVD" approach to playing. They didn't always have the greatest tone quality, but they weren't afraid to play either (which back then was a typical comment from brass judges, "You sound timid .. put some air through the horn". ) Where they exceeded expectations was in the NO HOLES approach to sound ... massive walls of non stop balance that others couldn't achieve on extended hit phrases, Some very good intonation on extremely complex chords, great soloists, breathtaking bari soli's, mello parts that were considered crazy for that era (until Star started matching their efforts around 1990) .... I'm sure I can come up with a longer list.

All that said .. yes they had some fracks .... but I will never trust what appears to be someone blatting on the old recording technology. I know for a fact that even in 1990 there were issues with recording and getting a full balanced sound out of any hornline. Case in point, 87 Garfields opening hit with the Euph from hell blaring directly into the mic on the 35 ... over powering the rest of the hornline on side 1. That wasn't someone sticking out ... that was just poor sound engineering with the mic setup. Prior to 1989, I sat in great positions for finals and never heard some of the crap flying that I hear on the CD's. And I mean NEVER!!!!!

I also have a ear for finding every tick under the sun ... but that hasn't kept me from being blinded to visual errors or deaf to sound errors when it's a show like 87 SCV, 87 Garfield, 84 Garfield, 88 Blue Devils, 88 Scouts (sans the first 1/3 of the show), 89 PR, 90 Star/Cavies/Cadets, ........... all top corps that had POWERFUL, PASSIONATE shows that were superbly designed to get a visceral response .... some of them made me blind and deaf because of their sheer awesomeness and presence on the field of battle.

It really is a matter of de-jading yourself and lightening up a bit .. the sad thing is, there are so few corps using this approach to design and performance these days. I do enjoy some shows that have extremely refined approaches to playing ........ but overall I find most of them sterile and cold (no fire, no passion, no hutzspa, no attempts to walk the edge of power vs. quality sound ....... maybe I'm wrong here, but to me, that's the biggest difference between todays corps and what was going on back then. I'll take the old ratty stuff any day of the week ... because they were trying to get me juiced up and they succeeded.

Edited September 17, 2010 by supersop

[Barifonium]

.... some of them made me blind and deaf because of their sheer awesomeness and presence on the field of battle.

I <3 the battlefield hype. I would use it as soon as I got off the bus for a show. I felt as if I were about to go to war.

It really is a matter of de-jading yourself

QFT

.. the sad thing is, there are so few corps using this approach to design and performance these days. I do enjoy some shows that have extremely refined approaches to playing ........ but overall I find most of them sterile and cold (no fire, no passion, no hutzspa, no attempts to walk the edge of power vs. quality sound ....... maybe I'm wrong here, but to me, that's the biggest difference between todays corps and what was going on back then. I'll take the old ratty stuff any day of the week ... because they were trying to get me juiced up and they succeeded.

This is where we have the paradox of excellence. I think part of it is that because the activity is evolving, the toning down and maturation, of style and control- not sounding edgy, is just par for the course. It was to be expected. I know Madison (using them as the crowd favorite) was entertaining but I'm not sure how on the edge their music, as much as their music selection, was in relation to their overall appeal.

[KAW]

That trophy goes to 84 Cadets

I couldn't disagree more.

[KAW]

And as usual .. the Elitists of DCP continue to FAIL in recognizing when PASSION outweighs technical proficiency. If 99 SCV and 84 Garfield were that terrible then how did the corps win? Secondly, how was it that 84 Garfield was considered one of the best hornlines in DCI history for nearly 2 decades after that performance? It was a different era with different reasons for performing ....... their motivation was not to sound like they were sitting in chairs in a concert hall. The motivation was to thrill people with raw energy deep passion in their performances. I'll turn my nose DOWN to your comments ..... because I would rather them make my pulse race than do their best to sound like a synthesized FINALE file.

Agreed. How anyone could sit in front of 84 Garfield and ever even remotely think they were one of the worst horn lines to win DCI in history is completely beyond me. Maybe he was mistaken.

[FHdork]

I would lean more toward the 'passion over perfection' side of this argument. I was at 84 finals, and I thought SCV won, until I heard BD...then I thought they won...until I heard Cadets...and then I was completely lost and was VERY glad I was not a judge. Whatever issues their horn players had, they didn't reach the upper deck in Atlanta...though I do certainly hear them when I listen to the recording.

That said, this statement by supersop caught my eye:

<Where they exceeded expectations was in the NO HOLES approach to sound ... massive walls of non stop balance that others couldn't achieve on extended hit phrases, >

The no holes approach was well established by then. It was being taught - if not performed - by many of the top horn lines for 6-8 years prior to 84. BD was doing an excellent job of this from 79, SCV from 81 (especially 82 and on...imo), and Phantom certainly from 79 as well. Cadets were not part of that trend UNTIL Van Doren...I believe he brought to Cadets that piece of the champions puzzle that they'd been lacking. Zingali, of course, brought to them what NO other corps would have for quite some time...which didn't hurt, either!

[Bruckner8]

Awesome, and how do we know when passion is being delivered? What are the elements of passion? There are only two possible outcomes, so be clear and honest with yourselves.

1) If we CAN identify the elements, then we've just broken passion down into tangible, measurable parts, which means it's teachable and judgable.

2) If we CANNOT identify them ("I know it when I hear it!"), then it's 100% subjective per individual.

To bring this into the new SCV brass staff, they were criticized for being the mf corps, passionless, right? But they certainly know how to get the numbers. (For the record, I've been known to use words like boring and low-risk for the Cavies hornlines of those times.)

[roosevelt]

Awesome, and how do we know when passion is being delivered? What are the elements of passion? There are only two possible outcomes, so be clear and honest with yourselves.

1) If we CAN identify the elements, then we've just broken passion down into tangible, measurable parts, which means it's teachable and judgable.

2) If we CANNOT identify them ("I know it when I hear it!"), then it's 100% subjective per individual.

To bring this into the new SCV brass staff, they were criticized for being the mf corps, passionless, right? But they certainly know how to get the numbers. (For the record, I've been known to use words like boring and low-risk for the Cavies hornlines of those times.)

Yes. Back to topic. While it is clear that the UH guys know how to teach and have produced a championship product in the past, I am not that certain that they do know how to get the numbers with the level of talent that they will be getting. Remember that when the cavaliers were winning horns (02 & 06) and DCI (01,02,04,06) in their tenure they were doing so with arguably the best talent in the activity at that time. When they came in (after the 2000 championship season) they inherited boat loads of talent and had shows that were arguably the most innovative in the activity at that time. They were essentially taking over what the blue devils are now. At SCV they are not inheriting the same kind of program. There will be lots of work to do in regards to recruiting and developing talent, not to mention the fact that they have to sell the corps on their way of doing things.

[Bari-Player]

Yes. Back to topic. While it is clear that the UH guys know how to teach and have produced a championship product in the past, I am not that certain that they do know how to get the numbers with the level of talent that they will be getting. Remember that when the cavaliers were winning horns (02 & 06) and DCI (01,02,04,06) in their tenure they were doing so with arguably the best talent in the activity at that time. When they came in (after the 2000 championship season) they inherited boat loads of talent and had shows that were arguably the most innovative in the activity at that time. They were essentially taking over what the blue devils are now. At SCV they are not inheriting the same kind of program. There will be lots of work to do in regards to recruiting and developing talent, not to mention the fact that they have to sell the corps on their way of doing things.

ugh - typed a sweet reply and it deleted it when I tried to post.

This is what it boiled down to.

My small program (>75) has abysmal feeder programs and I believe the only reason we are able to achieve any level of success is because I try my best to use the "eddie green method" that I learned from marching at Cavaliers.

The only other option is that I'm an incredible music teacher, but I don't want to take that credit because I've only been teaching for 4 years and I still feel like I suck.

end.

[Bruckner8]

Yes. Back to topic. While it is clear that the UH guys know how to teach and have produced a championship product in the past, I am not that certain that they do know how to get the numbers with the level of talent that they will be getting. Remember that when the cavaliers were winning horns (02 & 06) and DCI (01,02,04,06) in their tenure they were doing so with arguably the best talent in the activity at that time. When they came in (after the 2000 championship season) they inherited boat loads of talent and had shows that were arguably the most innovative in the activity at that time. They were essentially taking over what the blue devils are now. At SCV they are not inheriting the same kind of program. There will be lots of work to do in regards to recruiting and developing talent, not to mention the fact that they have to sell the corps on their way of doing things.

And they don't teach that level of talent now, in real life? Of course they do! And they're a few years older. I think this is the best possible outcome for SCV, all things considered. I'm sure they and Andre wish it could've continued, but he needed to go in a different direction. It happens. They caught lightning in a bottle in 2009, and took a huge risk in 2010 (Anytime you program Bartok you're taking a risk; Appalachian Spring, not so much, lol). It didn't work out...if you call being 7th in a super-competitive year not working out!

The 2010 SCV hornline was NOT a great hornline, for whatever reasons, not the least of which is VERY DIFFICULT, EXPOSED BOOK. I'm sure they knew that going in, with the arranger thinking "Oh ####" on sleepless nights. Like I said, if you're going to program Bartok, you're taking risks.

Andre has laid a very good, educational foundation. These guys coming in are from the same mold, no? Not only that, they've PROVEN it before!

Looks like WIN/WIN to me. But secretly I can hope they've learned "ya know what? Loud isn't all that bad after all" ;)