WHY?

[Tom Brace]

Tom Brace's reply from the original thread...

"Ok...this deserves an answer. It is a well conceived and thought out dissection of the talking points.

I would answer this. None of what you speculate about matters in the discussion. Drum corps has seen the success from marching band competitions and wants some of that. What they have continually realized is that the marching band audience (students and their parents are there only growing demographic. Us older phartes die. We need to be replaced and who wants to watch a non-American Idol, Katy Perry, Glee, marching pageant? The only sustaining answer is...band geeks.

So, over the past 15 years, the powers who get to decide, decided. They decided to be super marching bands. They decided they needed new audience in a growing demographic in exchange for a diminishing part of a dying demographic. They want to be super marching bands. Some of us will still stay until we die <read: me>. Others will not.

And guess what happens. Madison 2010 happens and it makes us happier than the norm. 2008 Regiment happens and it makes us jump out of our seats. Those special moments are still there. But, the bass player in Spirit from 2009, I think it was...that might be special to my 25 year old band geek son. So, that might be more of his...moment. I stopped long ago deciding for him what was best, or real, or important. We have an agreement...he doesn't decide that for me and I for him. Deal.

So, we have drum corps still. We have two main circuits and fledgling startups. I believe we are in far better straights than we were in the early-mid 1990s. So, I get a glass and it's not a koolaid flavor on the top of my list. It's still koolaid and it's still cold when I drink it.

My thoughts to you sir after your excellently crafted synopsis of the main points of this very long thread. "

TB - the drug resistant kind

Charter Member - DCP Buzz Kill Alpha Squadron

Featured Model - Pleistocene Quarterly Magazine

At the risk of quoting myself...

There has been a push since the late 1990s to be "Super Marching Bands." And we're pretty close to that now. Drum corps as it existed pre-grounding the pit does not exist any longer. The use of G horns will continue to dwindle as supply dries and costs escalate. I would guess that amps and mics are here to stay for the foreseeable future. With that comes the electronics, bass, guitar, other current marching band trends.

So, the big thing becomes woodwinds. Can we manage? Can we drum corps fans face the prospect of reeds and flutes in our drum corps? Will it matter? Currently, even this author would dump my association with drum corps and the dollars I poor into it annually if the clarinets and saxes begin to grace the sidelines. I believe others would embrace the advent of woodwinds as a natural evolution in this "super marching band" activity.

[BozzlyB]

At the risk of quoting myself...

There has been a push since the late 1990s to be "Super Marching Bands." And we're pretty close to that now. Drum corps as it existed pre-grounding the pit does not exist any longer. The use of G horns will continue to dwindle as supply dries and costs escalate. I would guess that amps and mics are here to stay for the foreseeable future. With that comes the electronics, bass, guitar, other current marching band trends.

So, the big thing becomes woodwinds. Can we manage? Can we drum corps fans face the prospect of reeds and flutes in our drum corps? Will it matter? Currently, even this author would dump my association with drum corps and the dollars I poor into it annually if the clarinets and saxes begin to grace the sidelines. I believe others would embrace the advent of woodwinds as a natural evolution in this "super marching band" activity.

This. It is the one final straw that I would not be able to get my mind around. It's simply a preference. I don't care for the sound of a marching band. I love the sound of an all brass hornline, and wind instruments simply detract from that IMO. I get that others like it and will embrace it, but not I.

[audiodb]

This. It is the one final straw that I would not be able to get my mind around. It's simply a preference. I don't care for the sound of a marching band. I love the sound of an all brass hornline, and wind instruments simply detract from that IMO. I get that others like it and will embrace it, but not I.

Not enough others like it to keep the bleachers (and DCI's bank account) sufficiently full. Someday, perhaps that will change....but until it does, DCI would be ill-advised to allow woodwinds.

[corpsband]

In terms of show concept, visual design and musical excellence, your first point is true.

In terms of electronics, bands have been in that realm far, far longer than drum corps. In this regard, drum corps is moving toward being marching band. I think this is why people get on the A&E is "so marching band" kick. And I'm one of them. The point has been argued to death, but once again I'll iterate my own opinion: when designers can create a musical image for me through acoustic means, I'm FLOORED. When they do it via the push of a button and a mic, I'm not.

My point was that marching bands didn't invent A&E. Many musicians were using speakers and electronic instruments in outdoor stadiums long before they did. So don't "blame" it on marching bands -- they borrowed it too! It's just part of the larger landscape. The fact that marching band and drum corps are similar is due to a long history of bands emulating drum corps -- not the other way around. In fact they're still doing it. So let's not forget that and get all freaked out when we look and see they are similar.

I don't disagree that it's more impressive to create effects without pressing the button. But -- in terms of show design -- there's no difference. You hear "wind". You hear "thunder". From the spectator POV it makes no difference exactly how that sound is generated; the fact that "insiders" are impressed by the acoustic version should make no difference to the design or effect. Just take the show at face value and don't "look behind the curtain".

Already we see many effects that just couldn't be reproduced acoustically: the bite of the apple, the baritone duet with himself; Teal's guitar line, breaking glass. Modern sampling keyboards have removed that opportunity for "creative" acoustic sound effects but they offer an infinitely wider palette, use fewer members to create, can be heard better, and are generally much more reliable. From a design/operation/logistics point of view, they make a lot of sense.

Did marching band have them before drum corps? Yes. But SO WHAT? Should Phantom have tossed their music last year because a marching band did it first? Sorry BD -- no mirrors -- all those tricks were done by bands and winterguards first.

IMO that sort of thinking is just not rational. Not to mention the fact that in each of those examples, the drum corps version was clearly distinct from the other versions.

Drum corps has been "borrowing" from other genres since it's inception. I don't expect it to stop.

ps.

I'd also like to step away from the "push a button" thing. There are some pretty impressive musicians sitting at those instruments.

Edited January 5, 2011 by corpsband

[audiodb]

My point was that marching bands didn't invent A&E. Many musicians were using speakers and electronic instruments in outdoor stadiums long before they did. So don't "blame" it on marching bands -- they borrowed it too!

Sure....but when "marching band does it" is used as justification for a change, don't be surprised if that doesn't satisfy everyone's concerns.

I don't disagree that it's more impressive to create effects without pressing the button. But -- in terms of show design -- there's no difference. You hear "wind". You hear "thunder". From the spectator POV it makes no difference exactly how that sound is generated; the fact that "insiders" are impressed by the acoustic version should make no difference to the design or effect. Just take the show at face value and don't "look behind the curtain".

Wow....you really don't get it at all, do you?

If no one cared how the sounds are produced, no one would ever have trekked out to football fields in mid-summer to hear a bunch of horns and drums try to make music while moving around. If anything, it ought to have been more of a fascination decades ago, when instrumentation was more limited. Oh, that's right - crowds were larger back then.

Already we see many effects that just couldn't be reproduced acoustically: the bite of the apple, the baritone duet with himself; Teal's guitar line, breaking glass.

1. You don't think that the percussion innovators that produced the "helicopters" of '91 SCV, or the "skipping record" of '83 VK, could replicate a "bite" sound?

2. I'll bet the Bluecoats had a good enough trumpet player that could have doubled the bari soloist in his/her own octave.

3. While acoustic drum corps hasn't duplicated all the sounds of an electric guitar, it sure is fun to hear talented brass players adapt guitar music to their own instruments(including Teal Sound's own soloists and tuba section).

4. Go listen to 2003 Carolina Crown....plenty of glass sounds in that show.

Modern sampling keyboards have removed that opportunity for "creative" acoustic sound effects but they offer an infinitely wider palette, use fewer members to create, can be heard better, and are generally much more reliable.

More reliable? You can't get this stuff to work in bad weather, and often won't even try due to safety concerns. Even in nice conditions, how reliable were the Bluecoats' vocal parts in 2008? Amplification failures are too numerous to list here.

Did marching band have them before drum corps? Yes. But SO WHAT? Should Phantom have tossed their music last year because a marching band did it first? Sorry BD -- no mirrors -- all those tricks were done by bands and winterguards first.

IMO that sort of thinking is just not rational. Not to mention the fact that in each of those examples, the drum corps version was clearly distinct from the other versions.

Drum corps has been "borrowing" from other genres since it's inception. I don't expect it to stop.

No argument from me there. Since there are 100 times as many marching bands now, they're bound to come up with some ideas "first".

I'd also like to step away from the "push a button" thing. There are some pretty impressive musicians sitting at those instruments.

I'm sure there are....and I know they use those talents for far better things than the "apple bite" effect (which is basically "push a button"). I also know that there are some pretty impressive field musicians getting drowned out at times because the impressive musician at the synthesizer has no control over what the sound board operator is doing. Amplification's issues are often no fault of the performers, and not within the performers' ability to fix.

[WWonka]

Eh.. it is what it is. They wanted some new toys because they had them at their fall/winter gig. Do I like it? No. Do I think it is going away? No. Do I think anyone who was involved in this decision really gives a rats ### what most of us think? No.

[glory]

I've seen West Side Story on Broadway twice. It was great 30 years ago. And it was great again last week though the singing was no longer acoustic. That's right. I'm old enough to have seen Broadway shows when actors had to rely on lung power to fill the theater with song. No more. The WSS I saw last week, just like Wicked in November, is powered by wireless mics.

Drum corps doesn't operate in isolation from the world around it. That world has brought new tools, new possibilities and new standards to drum corps as it has to everything else. We can no more expect drum corps without electronics than we can telephones without keypads.

I prefer a world without mobile phones. Yet I’m not foolish enough to think such a world is possible anymore. Mobile phones are here to stay for reasons I mostly reject. There are actors who still can fill the theater with their voice alone. No need to look for them. The world accepts mics in music. It’s not a matter of why; it just is.

Drum corps isn’t acoustic any more. The days of auld lang syne deserve a cup of cheer. Tomorrow, as always, is a new tune.

HH

[corpsband]

If no one cared how the sounds are produced, no one would ever have trekked out to football fields in mid-summer to hear a bunch of horns and drums try to make music while moving around. If anything, it ought to have been more of a fascination decades ago, when instrumentation was more limited. Oh, that's right - crowds were larger back then.

False. People did not go out to shows to see the amazing trickery used to create sound effects. They were there to enjoy the production -- just . like. today!! And the designers were after the effect -- they did whatever it took to create it. The fact that you're nostalgic about how they did it doesn't mean designers had the intent to do things the hard way. If they had found a simpler way they would have used it .

1. You don't think that the percussion innovators that produced the "helicopters" of '91 SCV, or the "skipping record" of '83 VK, could replicate a "bite" sound?

No. They might come up with some noise vaguely reminiscent of biting an apple. But there's no way they'd come anywhere close to that sample. Nor would the audience hear it as clearly.

2. I'll bet the Bluecoats had a good enough trumpet player that could have doubled the bari soloist in his/her own octave.

Perhaps but it would be nothing like what was presented. In fact it would sound completely different.

3. While acoustic drum corps hasn't duplicated all the sounds of an electric guitar, it sure is fun to hear talented brass players adapt guitar music to their own instruments(including Teal Sound's own soloists and tuba section).

Oops. So Teal couldn't have done what they did.

4. Go listen to 2003 Carolina Crown....plenty of glass sounds in that show.

And nothing at all like the BD effect.

More reliable? You can't get this stuff to work in bad weather, and often won't even try due to safety concerns. Even in nice conditions, how reliable were the Bluecoats' vocal parts in 2008? Amplification failures are too numerous to list here.

In general yes.. Modern digital equipment is more reliable than home-made cantankerous contraptions. Not to mention more versatile, more compact, and more effective. The fact there are execution problems should be no surprise. There are execution problems in every performance. People lose mouthpieces, slides, drumsticks, rifles, sabers, flags. Heads break, tuning pedals break, cymbals crack. #### happens in a live performance. Nothing new to see here.

Look. What sound effect studios did before digital was cool. Foley artists were (and are) amazing. But in a movie (just as in drum corps) all those effects were just a means to an end.

Clearly you just don't get it

[skewerz]

I really would like to see some actual study of this on DCI's part. Lots of people who love DCI/drum corps will tolerate such things right now because they as fans are still on the fence, or they get most of what they really enjoy from enough other corps right now. But really: they love it? Lots of them?

The trend I have seen on DCP at least seems to be something akin to this:

Lots of people tolerate it

A few people enjoy it

Many others really don't enjoy it at all

So, maybe it's time for a DCP poll as a start!

I did a poll on this a year or two ago...

It ended up being about 40% don't like it, 50% tolerate it, and 10% like it...was so overwhelmingly against narration and synths that it wasn't funny. Of course, it was poopoo'd by the naysayers, saying it can't be accurate, as dcp isn't everyone that listens to drum corps, etc...

[audiodb]

I've seen West Side Story on Broadway twice. It was great 30 years ago. And it was great again last week though the singing was no longer acoustic. That's right. I'm old enough to have seen Broadway shows when actors had to rely on lung power to fill the theater with song. No more. The WSS I saw last week, just like Wicked in November, is powered by wireless mics.

Drum corps doesn't operate in isolation from the world around it. That world has brought new tools, new possibilities and new standards to drum corps as it has to everything else. We can no more expect drum corps without electronics than we can telephones without keypads.

I prefer a world without mobile phones. Yet I’m not foolish enough to think such a world is possible anymore. Mobile phones are here to stay for reasons I mostly reject. There are actors who still can fill the theater with their voice alone. No need to look for them. The world accepts mics in music. It’s not a matter of why; it just is.

And yet, despite the technology that permits us to record, reproduce, or compose/perform music electronically without the need for a real-time human performer, crowds still flock to witness the old-fashioned practice of performing music live....with all it's flaws. Sometimes, the time-honored method of doing something is the fundamental attraction.