audiodb Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Sarcasm alert! You mentioned 11 instances in 38 YEARS of drum corps REALLY? No....it was 11 instances in 43 years. That's even worse! You think drum corps is defined by these 11 (or more) instances that took place over 38 YEARS? Yep. Just those 11 moments, nothing else. And those drum corps that did not use sound effects they were... what? boring? uninteresting? not "thrilling"? Uh-huh. There was nothing else in the 20,000 corps shows through the years that interested me in the least. /sarcasm You know, if you had read the part of my post where it says "I can't possibly list all the examples", that would have saved some bandwidth here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'm with you there....but that is wishful thinking. Not necessarily that wishful. It makes sense to me. If it sounds better and ineffective then points off or no credit received. But again, its all about how judges define "effective" and recently there is a disconnect between what the judges find "effective" and what the audience finds "effective". Change the judging! It isn't a "difficult button". Amplification is not a button. More risky than getting two performers to play together as one? Right... so why do they have solos in drum corps? Because its the easy way out? come on... A vibe player has the right to play by himself as a color guard person has the right to spin by herself. Every performer has the right to be heard at the appropriate volume (or seen in the CG case). It's ONLY FAIR. To be candid, while I'm sure many brass instructors teach stagger-breathing, it is clear in listening to hornlines that the learning process is still going on mid-season. Is that a statement about its difficulty, poor teaching, or corps not caring about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 You know, if you had read the part of my post where it says "I can't possibly list all the examples", that would have saved some bandwidth here. I did. I wanted to give you a hard time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Conversely, A&E has the potential to take away from shows in a negative fashion, which is more detrimental than beneficial. So we get one show that A&E adds to and 10 that A&E takes away from. Is it worth it under this scenario? No. That doesn't mean A&E will never add to those 10 shows it took away from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Let's summarize: You think creating those sound effect acoustically was really cool.I agree. [*]You think those acoustic effects were an important part of the drumcorps. I disagree. I think the sounds themselves were the goal -- not the acoustic approximations of them. [*]You think electronics is cheating. You think there's value in spending a great deal of time and effort in the approximating or suggesting a sound-effect. I disagree. I think the performers time is better spent on the music and visual -- not the gimmicks. [*]I think electronic instruments are contributing much more than "sound effects". You want corps to create grand piano patches from PVC pipe and bailing wire. [*]I think out-of-balance electronics should penalized more. We agree but you'd prefer electronics to be balance to zero. Does that about cover it? 1. agreement. good. 2. Uh oh... now we're headed downhill. I think you have misunderstood - at least my argument has been misunderstood. Of course the SOUND was the goal, and within the rules those sounds were created as acoustic approximations. 3. No, electronics is not cheating - it's allowed and thus "legal." And I do think there is value in approximating non-musical sounds via acoustic approximation. Why? Because it forces creative thinking. And you know what? I bet - I SERIOUSLY BET - that designers aren't the only ones creating sounds. I assert that if a pit is told "hey, can you figure out a way to make this sound acoustically?" they would take the challenge of it and get really creative. And the more we can educate musicians about acoustic effect, the more they learn to mold acoustic sound to their liking. (oops, I lumped #3 and 4 together, so anyway... moving on...) 5. In some cases electronic instruments are contributing more than sound effects. Of course I can agree with that - I'd be foolish to think otherwise. So what? Let's also acknowledge that part of the thrill of drum corps is hearing arrangers do fantastic things with pieces written for a million different types of musical ensembles/instruments/voices and put them in a new context. I can go hear Rhapsody in Blue as a concert piece 2-3 times a year in various concert halls. I go to a drum corps show to hear something different about that piece. Is it really so hard to grok that "different" in drum corps is a good thing? 6. Ok, with the baling wire and pvc pipe crack we've left the realm of summary debate and gotten into ridicule. Next... 7. Judging for out-of-balance electronics would be good, yes. Too bad the control of balance has very little to do with the performer and a lot to do with a guy and a phone near the press box. (by the way, I sat near such a person - no wait, let me rephrase - such a person chose to sit near me at a show this summer because there was some space there. You know what I heard during the performance? "murmur murmur murmur.... murmur murmur murmur....murmur...." It was especially pleasant to hear him during the softer moments.) But my point is about who is in control of the sound, and that's what makes judging it a dicey subject. 8. Balance to zero? That will only happen if DCI revokes the use of synthesizers. Look, I know it's frustrating when people don't agree with each other, but come on. Do we always have to try to pigeon-hole people and back them into a corner? You knew what I was getting at, you know what Audiodb is getting at, you are not stupid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Right... so why do they have solos in drum corps? Because its the easy way out? come on... A vibe player has the right to play by himself as a color guard person has the right to spin by herself. Every performer has the right to be heard at the appropriate volume (or seen in the CG case). It's ONLY FAIR. No, there are no "rights" to speak of as you have put them here. You do what is asked of you by your design and education team in order to further the accomplishments of the whole. If a solo works, it works. If it doesn't, you follow the instructions of your design and education team (and give personal input into solutions if required) to either change it or hose it. You don't go to them and say "but I've got a RIGHT to do this!" Please, we're not talking about voting or equal access. The point audiodb was making was.... oh never mind. You know the point already. You really do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Is that a statement about its difficulty, poor teaching, or corps not caring about it? All of the above, I guess. Stagger-breathing is taught, and it is cared-about. But it is not easy. You will hear issues with it even from top corps. That seamless wall of brass sound takes some work to build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 1. agreement. good. 2. Uh oh... now we're headed downhill. I think you have misunderstood - at least my argument has been misunderstood. Of course the SOUND was the goal, and within the rules those sounds were created as acoustic approximations. 3. No, electronics is not cheating - it's allowed and thus "legal." And I do think there is value in approximating non-musical sounds via acoustic approximation. Why? Because it forces creative thinking. And you know what? I bet - I SERIOUSLY BET - that designers aren't the only ones creating sounds. I assert that if a pit is told "hey, can you figure out a way to make this sound acoustically?" they would take the challenge of it and get really creative. And the more we can educate musicians about acoustic effect, the more they learn to mold acoustic sound to their liking. (oops, I lumped #3 and 4 together, so anyway... moving on...) 5. In some cases electronic instruments are contributing more than sound effects. Of course I can agree with that - I'd be foolish to think otherwise. So what? Let's also acknowledge that part of the thrill of drum corps is hearing arrangers do fantastic things with pieces written for a million different types of musical ensembles/instruments/voices and put them in a new context. I can go hear Rhapsody in Blue as a concert piece 2-3 times a year in various concert halls. I go to a drum corps show to hear something different about that piece. Is it really so hard to grok that "different" in drum corps is a good thing? 6. Ok, with the baling wire and pvc pipe crack we've left the realm of summary debate and gotten into ridicule. Next... 7. Judging for out-of-balance electronics would be good, yes. Too bad the control of balance has very little to do with the performer and a lot to do with a guy and a phone near the press box. (by the way, I sat near such a person - no wait, let me rephrase - such a person chose to sit near me at a show this summer because there was some space there. You know what I heard during the performance? "murmur murmur murmur.... murmur murmur murmur....murmur...." It was especially pleasant to hear him during the softer moments.) But my point is about who is in control of the sound, and that's what makes judging it a dicey subject. 8. Balance to zero? That will only happen if DCI revokes the use of synthesizers. Look, I know it's frustrating when people don't agree with each other, but come on. Do we always have to try to pigeon-hole people and back them into a corner? You knew what I was getting at, you know what Audiodb is getting at, you are not stupid. People long for acoustic drum corps. I have a fondness for it myself. One of my favorite drumcorps activities : listening to brass lines with no pit and no battery. But arguing against electronics because it's too "easy" is akin to the "I walked to school in the 10 feet of snow and it was up-hill both ways". All the effects created acoustically were done so out of necessity not (as audiodb would have us believe) preference or superior creative experience. And no one went to shows just to see the occasional effect. Yes it was challenging to create sound effects acoustically. But I see no dearth of challenges facing today's performers. Rehearsal time is a precious quantity. It might be better and more creatively spent on things OTHER than making helicopter noises. In the past corps used sound effects to create mood and enhance GE. Today corps use sound effects to create mood and enhance GE. In that respect nothing has changed except the quality of the effect (generally much better) and the ability of the audience to hear it (generally much better). What *has* changed is that members and staff can spend more time focusing on the actual performance and less time figuring out the gimmick. To me that seems like a net gain. Pushing a button for thunder instead 10 kids shaking sheet metal is an improvement (of the thunder and the contribution of kids who can now actually play music). Drum corps today is nothing like what transpires in any concert hall. It's still unique. It's still different. Arrangers still have to arrange for a very odd mix of instrumentation. The activity still takes place on football fields. You can't go elsewhere to hear or see it. So all of these arguments really boil down to: I liked it the way it was. Well -- drum corps does not stand still. It has evolved from the day it started and is continuing to do so. Every change is met with "but you're changing the fundamental nature of the activity". That's only true if you close your mind to the possibility that each iteration has something unique and valuable to offer. Thunderous goo will subside. Chattering sound techs will be replaced with remote mixing. It will continue to get better. And things that you never imagined will happen. It's all good :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 6. Ok, with the baling wire and pvc pipe crack we've left the realm of summary debate and gotten into ridicule. Next... Not true at all. I saw many a contraption lugged on to the field which appeared to be little more than that :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 No, there are no "rights" to speak of as you have put them here. You do what is asked of you by your design and education team in order to further the accomplishments of the whole. If a solo works, it works. If it doesn't, you follow the instructions of your design and education team (and give personal input into solutions if required) to either change it or hose it. You don't go to them and say "but I've got a RIGHT to do this!" Please, we're not talking about voting or equal access. The point audiodb was making was.... oh never mind. You know the point already. You really do. Why do I agree with all of this but it was seen a rebuttal to my statement? Terri Troop, I am not against you. I agree with 98% of everything you say! If you think I'm against you some how, then I guess I need to stop putting exclamation points and upcase words in my posts! (oops) :P The point is that if the designers want to have a vibraphone solo in their show because it "works" then the designer has the right for it to be amplified (in accordance with the rules). Also, its fair to the kid that if the designer thinks she should have a solo that it should be heard appropriately with the use of mics just as any solo should be appreciated at the appropriate volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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