glory Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Also, I think how some would approach the interpretation of this caption, it might was well just be called "The Real Winner Caption" Yep. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 . . .and considering there's already a "Fan Favorite" award a lot of the time on dci.org, it's the same thing. Who cares if it's on the sheets? Perhaps last year the Cavaliers might have won this category, and nudged a little closer (perhaps .1-.2) to BD in the process. Is that really going to cause every show to become twenty company fronts and 48 count power chords? Let's say this does go into effect and corps look at the design process from the get-go as needing to "max out" the entertainment category a little more. Perhaps if this rule was around in 2010, the Blue Devils may have played the same show, except closed out with a more straightforward "La Suerte" reprise to get people out of their seats at the end of the show: is that really that bad for the activity? Funny how many "slippery slope" arguments we've had for amplification and electronics here, yet, when things are turned around now with this proposal, the first thing the "progressives" here and elsewhere do is bemoan this as leading to a clap-a-thon or dumbing down the product. If we can moderate the use if A&E/etc (and get some agreement that it wasn't the end of the world) . . .then we can #### sure turn this around and do the same thing here and implement it thoughtfully as well in the design process. I didn't like amps or electronics . . .but, you know, I decided to give it a chance anyway. Perhaps some of you out there could do the same if this rule does pass in some form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 If you're interested, I created a poll asking for retroactive judging of entertainment of the 2010 programs. Have fun. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 ...Funny how many "slippery slope" arguments we've had for amplification and electronics here, yet, when things are turned around now with this proposal, the first thing the "progressives" here and elsewhere do is bemoan this as leading to a clap-a-thon or dumbing down the product... Ha! If you're saying we prefer "acoustic" judging, then you're right! HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I understand that. And I agree more entertaining shows are a good thing. But what of my hypothetical? (It's now a hypothetical so as to take the prior calculation out of the discussion.) Cavies need a 1.2 spread in entertainment to pass BD last year. But the judges only award Cavies 1 point differential in the entertainment caption. So BD is the champion. Where does that leave drum corps? We'd have Cavies, the fan favorite and the judges top pick in entertainment, in second. BD gets the ring. It would be worse than 2010. More discredit on the legitimate champion. More griping than ever. And all because we separate entertainment from general effect. Why must we? HH Valid point...but how is this different from the "fan favorite award"? The Disney Award was driven by some of the same dynamics but it could couch itself as a reward for Entertainment Design and not so much about fan approval. The new Fan Favorite Award is a straight up popularity contest about the corps and not (necessarily) the show itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytimp Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Sorry I'm a little late to the discussion, but I must state that the idea of vocal soloists performing without accompaniment is stupid. Please carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I agree with that. I think there are room for shows that are custom designed to bring the fans to their feet (see Madison Scouts last year, and their successful attempt at 'rebranding' their corps), and designed to stimulate intellectually and elicit reactions other than mass-appealing entertainment. I enjoyed both Blue Devils and Madison Scouts almost equally last season, but for vastly different reasons. Frankly, that's one thing I love about drum corps, and I think the activity as a whole is better at catering to different tastes than just about any other broad activity (IMO better than WGI or BOA). I think trying to shoe-horn every corps or show design into one broad category would do a great disservice to the activity, and you are not likely to find ten random judges who can all uniformly agree on not only what defines "entertaining," but the ranking of a show's "entertainment" factor. However...and this may be counter to my own argument....more and more, arts performances are relying on the standards if their main audience is 30+. Look at your local symphony and the tickets they "give away" the night of the new experimental piece by a new composer versus the sellout crowds for "A Night of Beethoven," etc. Playing it safe pleases..or "lulls" many current audience members in the symphony, opera and ballet crowds. So, crowds riot, at times when they listen to the new composers with their avant guarde compositions with their "dancing to the death." Much like a couple of Star's early 90s offerings, they are only truly appreciated over time. So, guess what. It still makes sense to assume that Mason's proposal goes nowhere. Yes, there is a "test" environment in the DCI structure now, but, Mason's corps isn't part of that. Had he jumped in with Blue Stars instead of his alma mater, we may be looking at a different outcome. Is it possible Mason will become the new Stewart in DCI terms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 They'll be less inclined to do things that have never been done before to entertain the audience. Especially since they there is more security in doing something that has more "expected" outcome. Afterall, who's not going to cheer for a corps in company front? Pretty standard get your butt out of the seat technique! Well, don't expect any calls from DCI title contenders looking for design staff, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Okay. So let's start here. And anyone can play. Use the new rule to recast the intent of the effect sheets. Tell me how that exercise would impact last year's programs/results. You don't have to quantify anything. Just tell me who succeeded at "entertainment" and who failed. And tell me (if you like) how that result might have changed the rankings in your opinion. My opinion still wouldn't count. The opinions of the DCI judges assigned to that show would still have been the only ones tabulated. And as such, I can't say you'd even see a duel as close as SCV/Blue Stars flip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) No offense, but it seems as if you're being a little coy here in not answering my question about how you would score entertainment in last year's shows. Surely you're not expecting wholesale design changes the year this rule takes effect (if it takes effect). If history tells us anything, change will come slowly. A corps or two might try something "radical" as Boston and Crown did in 2004. But most will be cautious in implementation. So pretend last year was the first year this rule went into effect and that last year's programs reflected designer understanding of the implication of the rule change. How would y'all allocate your entertainment points? Who gets a lot of credit? Who doesn't? HH I'm not being coy -- I have no idea how it would play it out. This caption has never been judged. Why does it matter? Seems to me you're the one being evasive here. You clearly have a point to make but want me write down some numbers in order to make it. Tell you what -- why don't you save us all a lot of trouble, make up the numbers *you* think I would write down, and then blast away :-) I'm all ready to see the words ABBD and hater. OTOH if your point is "it wouldn't affect the outcome so why bother" my answer in advance is the caption is a carrot not a stick. Depending on how well you engage/communicate/hold interest of the audience you earn up to 10 bonus points :-) I think the proposal might be a good step. I've made lots of suppositions about the intent of the proposer (why a separate caption) -- don't really know if they're true or not. Quite frankly I'd rather see DCI address the effect caption directly. Adding another judge to every panel is probably not ideal. But any change that causes designers to further consider communication with the audience is IMO a net change for the better. Edited January 14, 2011 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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