No more Tour Fee Excuses

[GUARDLING]

and as you scan facebook pages, websites and other outlets, seems that's not just a Surf related issue

I'm sure it's not but certainly will hurt a sma;ller corps than one who can lure a young person in for many other reasons...just human nature.... part of the game

[Stu]

I'm going to ask this question in a serious manner ( $1 to Ben Stern). When was the last time you spent a lot of time around a DCI WC corps? I ask because I have, and the amount of money you think they spend vs. the reality of how they make do very well without a lot of expense is enormous. I know because I've been working with a band for 12 years now with a reputation of "breaking the bank" on outrageous props.

I've seen the receipts. I've seen how we've found ways to recycle things and use them in a new way. I've seen how we've gone out and solicited donations....and best of all, I've seen what some diehard dads with power tools can create with some time and thought...and not a lot of money.

Granted, I have not spent any time with corps' administrative staff, I have not spent time with any corps' Boards, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express!!! In all seriousness, I have been involved with various groups, both profit and non-profit, and know that you can go out of business real quick if your primary focus is not on keeping the group afloat. And I cannot for the life of me understand why there is so much reaction against my stance that Bob should have guaranteed funding for those who want to name their own price. Anyway, I will just sign off on this topic and hope that all corps' (old, re-emerging, existing, new, DCI, DCA, DCNA, SDCA) are ran with a better eye on money.

[GUARDLING]

Granted, I have not spent any time with corps' administrative staff, I have not spent time with any corps' Boards, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express!!! In all seriousness, I have been involved with various groups, both profit and non-profit, and know that you can go out of business real quick if your primary focus is not on keeping the group afloat. And I cannot for the life of me understand why there is so much reaction against my stance that Bob should have guaranteed funding for those who want to name their own price. Anyway, I will just sign off on this topic and hope that all corps' (old, re-emerging, existing, new, DCI, DCA, DCNA, SDCA) are ran with a better eye on money.

well i have been ...... if its a solid plan for them and also have a plan B in place more power to them ...they can show others....BUT i have seen this before and yet to see it work.....but I do wish them well also

[Jeff Ream]

I'm sure it's not but certainly will hurt a sma;ller corps than one who can lure a young person in for many other reasons...just human nature.... part of the game

agreed, especially if you aren't a TOC corps. hell how many corps were full a finals last year?

[Jeff Ream]

Granted, I have not spent any time with corps' administrative staff, I have not spent time with any corps' Boards,

so, then you speak as if you know, when in reality, you don't. That sums up everything so well. Thank you for clarifying.

but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express!!!

I checked them out last year at Allentown. Pillows were too fluffy

In all seriousness, I have been involved with various groups, both profit and non-profit, and know that you can go out of business real quick if your primary focus is not on keeping the group afloat. And I cannot for the life of me understand why there is so much reaction against my stance that Bob should have guaranteed funding for those who want to name their own price. Anyway, I will just sign off on this topic and hope that all corps' (old, re-emerging, existing, new, DCI, DCA, DCNA, SDCA) are ran with a better eye on money.

I take serious offense that you claim Bob and Surf doesn't have an eye on the money, and so should they. Why? because by your own words, you have NO knowledge of what really goes on with a DCI World Class corps. In fact, as opposed to just ranting out here about all your expertise and knowledge, maybe you should try some humble pie and ASK Bob and crew how they're going about it.

Good news...Bob's an open and candid guy. I bet you he'd educate you beyond what you think you know

[3rd&10]

If the consensus is that the Jersey Surf are in good shape financially and have practiced solid fiscal decisions for over 20 years and the director is a rational and intelligent man AND we have no direct knowledge of the risk the corps projects...why would anyone question the action as a business decision???

There are very few corps that do not offer very similar programs. The difference here is that the Surf are being honest and upfront about the opportunity. Credit Mr. Jacobs for taking one of the dirty little secrets of drum corps and turning it into a marketing and positioning opportunity for his corps. I hope kids flock to the Surf, especially those who were originally not able to march this season.

Unless this Mr. Stu has a specific axe to grind against Bob Jacobs or the Surf, I see no logical motivation for his repeated attempts to poke holes in the "Name Your Own Price" offer.

[Stu]

so, then you speak as if you know, when in reality, you don't. That sums up everything so well. Thank you for clarifying.

I was going to stop posting in this thread but felt compelled to respond to this specific statement. By your logic, that you have to be "directly" involved with something to know about a subject, then anyone who has not been elected to Congress cannot have a valid opinion on how that entity should conduct business; or anyone who has not been a Teacher cannot hold a valid opinion on how educational systems should be ran. You can say that you disagree with my opinion, and even poke holes in it where I am wrong, but to say that since I have not been directly involved with a drum corps administration disqualifies me from being able to evaluate how a corps should be ran is blatantly false.

[Jeff Ream]

I was going to stop posting in this thread but felt compelled to respond to this specific statement. By your logic, that you have to be "directly" involved with something to know about a subject, then anyone who has not been elected to Congress cannot have a valid opinion on how that entity should conduct business; or anyone who has not been a Teacher cannot hold a valid opinion on how educational systems should be ran. You can say that you disagree with my opinion, and even poke holes in it where I am wrong, but to say that since I have not been directly involved with a drum corps administration disqualifies me from being able to evaluate how a corps should be ran is blatantly false.

and since you know so much, why aren't you offering your services to DCI and or the corps themselves?

yes we all talk on here. But the man himself came out here and pretty much gave the low down. Others with ties, or those who have bothered to ask how it works and get info have told you how it goes....yet you still claim they are setting themselves up for failure.

so a question: Say Surf comes out with 140 and makes semis because of this plan. Will you come out here and admit you were wrong?

[garfield]

Actually, we are more in agreement than you might think:

a) It [drum corps] IS a charitable endeavor that needs a profit-making arm to keep it solvent (however, this is where most corps fail, they do not create profit-making arms);

b) Today many corps have similarly outlandish props [as Star did] but how many corps have for-profit ventures (ding, ding, ding, winner, winner, chicken dinner);

c) Drum corps is not self-supportive but it's not because of tour fees or lack of fund raising. It's due to the expenses necessary to put a corps on the field (but many corps' who cannot raise those funds to support the expenses choose to field anyway instead of cutting back to stay in the financial black);

d) A few kids paying cut-rate fees will not prevent or induce solvency (a few, correct, but many who pay cut-rate will destroy it unless corporate sponsorship is there to take up the slack);

e) Arts organizations are at the constant whim of the willing corporate and personal benefactors who support it (and if corporate and personal benefactors back way off on support, the corps' should back way off of their performances);

e) The local burger joint or pizza house or muffler shop ponied up money for t-shirts for the [pee-wee] team because somebody asked it to (the operative word here is "local", even though pee-wee teams have the little-league world series the teams do not go on eight-week long national tours but stay local until their world-series)

f) Stu, isn't a little ironic that Star, the epitome of a "financially well-run" corps, is long gone yet Surf and Jacobs are still here? (ironic in the sense that if DCI had changed to accept the Star model of how corps' should be financially ran Star would probably still be in DCI and Surf would probably not have to be coming up with this desperate "name your own price" scenario);

g) *here is where we disagree. Doesn't that prove the point that your definition of "financially well run" works in the corporate world but doesn't work in the charitable world? (Nope; if the DCI community had changed their philosophy to allow a more acceptable Star model of doing business, to not only push for Major League performances but also push for Major League for-profit sponsorships to cover increasing tour costs, things would be vastly different now. Highly successful groups like Blast, Stomp, and Blue Man Group today would not only be artistic outgrowths, but likely integral parts of the DCI marketing system).

a) By your logic then, DCI should forbid any corps from national touring that does not have a for-profit arm? How long do you think it would be before we're sitting in the stands waiting for a show that never happens?

c) Surf is a part-time-touring corps. Would you suppose they should go inactive for any year that they don't have "money in the bank" at the beginning of the season? How would that affect recruitment and maintenance of vets?

d) You continually go back to this notion that "all" or even "many" members will march for free? Isn't it possible that only a few will march on cut-rate fees and, even then, not for the whole season? Why must it be either/or in your rationale?

e) We agree here. Local and regional tours leading up to finals elimination in August would be less of a financial burden on all corps.

f) This is just a pipe-dream. As I eluded to before, if Star's were a workable model then at least all of the "Top" corps would have for-profit arms...Oh Wait! They do! Cadets, BD, and Crown (whom I admire for their contributions to the activity) each have for-profit arms and were the first in line to cry poverty and to expect more payout from DCI to survive. These are million-dollar operations and, yet, they run close to the vest each and every year. How's that Star model go again? Oh yes, they had one rich and generous dude who poured money in and cringed as he stared into the drum corps financial abyss.

g) Yes, Star's model was a sight to behold. Too bad that there aren't 23 or 46 billionaires willing to do good by starting and financing corps. But that's just the reality. Now what? They fold because they don't have for-profit arms AND rich donors?

[garfield]

and since you know so much, why aren't you offering your services to DCI and or the corps themselves?

yes we all talk on here. But the man himself came out here and pretty much gave the low down. Others with ties, or those who have bothered to ask how it works and get info have told you how it goes....yet you still claim they are setting themselves up for failure.

so a question: Say Surf comes out with 140 and makes semis because of this plan. Will you come out here and admit you were wrong?

Equally important, what if Surf finds that they can put 140 on the field, make even the top-12, and it can be done on dues of $750 for the whole season? What if, instead of the Star model, the Surf model is the right one and becomes the standard of drum corps financial management?

Isn't it just possible that going back to music emphasis and less props and fluff (and maybe an 6 week tour instead of 8) that a corps CAN be competitive and the finances would stablize without the constant creep up in costs? What if they used their horns for 4 years instead of 2? What if they ditched the amps and speakers and synths and props and stages and 15 flag changes and new unis every couple of years? Isn't it a little conspicuous that corps finances causes so many failures during the same time that visual pizazz took precedence over musical excellence?

Just some random thoughts for which there are, admittedly, many opinions...

Edited April 7, 2011 by garfield