Tez Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) I agree. More money and research needs to be put into the webcasts. I see these as a growing money train for DCI, even if it's not yet making big bucks. The potential is there. Let's face it, using amps at indoor stadiums with that boom effect, and trying to mix that with acoustic brass and percussion is just not a good mix. In terms of the webcasts, I would suggest not showing the indoor shows with the exception of DCI Semifinals. Find some alternative outdoor venues to use for the webcasts. At any rate, I think it's time to invest more time and money and research into the webcast project, because overall I love viewing them and I think it's a great way to service your fans. I have no idea where the idea came from that the over-balanced amp problems have something to do with shows being "indoors." Why would the stadium affect the sounds coming out of the speakers any differently than all of the other sounds produced by the ensemble? It makes no sense.... In my experiences, sometimes it is actually more difficult to hear the front ensemble indoors because of all the extra reverb from non-sustaining instruments (like the drum line). I have noticed in outdoor live viewing situations, just as bad (if not worse) thunderous goo, loud amps, and way too much synth. The problem with the broadcasts are simply where the corps' speakers are pointed. This is painfully obvious. Corps who had their speakers far outside of where the mics (Crown, Blue Devils) had great amp balance on the San Antonio feed. Corps which pointed their speakers directly at the mics (Bluecoats, Spirit) had enormous over-balance problems. ...... So either the mics should be moved, or the speakers. That one is also simple. If you are going to use field level mics (to get a much better quality of sound) to record the shows, the engineer can't possibly move them out any more than they already are. As it is, there is too much phase cancellation and things like that caused by sounds reaching the two mics at slightly different times..... so they can't spread them further, and they can't put them closer together because then we would lose even more sound from the corps when they are not front and center. Therefore, the only logical solution, is to instruct the corps to spread their speakers apart more (and not have any pointing towards the middle). In addition to providing a better balance for the live broadcasts, a wider spread will create better projection to the audience seated higher up, the audience seated more on the sides, and the judges in the box. The listening audience which is front and center can already hear the front ensemble clearly because of their closer proximity. Let's please fix this sooner than later.... it's so simple. Edited July 25, 2011 by Tez 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 if it doesn't sound right in the stadium, it will never sound right over the internet either. It will never be fixed until judges start throwing 12s out for completely unbalanced ensembles in ensemble music. that said, people who aent exactly fans of electronics have said it sounds better live than it is coming across the web or in the theater. that's what this thread is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 I have no idea where the idea came from that the over-balanced amp problems have something to do with shows being "indoors." Why would the stadium affect the sounds coming out of the speakers any differently than all of the other sounds produced by the ensemble? It makes no sense.... In my experiences, sometimes it is actually more difficult to hear the front ensemble indoors because of all the extra reverb from non-sustaining instruments (like the drum line). I have noticed in outdoor live viewing situations, just as bad (if not worse) thunderous goo, loud amps, and way too much synth. The problem with the broadcasts are simply where the corps' speakers are pointed. This is painfully obvious. Corps who had their speakers far outside of where the mics (Crown, Blue Devils) had great amp balance on the San Antonio feed. Corps which pointed their speakers directly at the mics (Bluecoats, Spirit) had enormous over-balance problems. ...... So either the mics should be moved, or the speakers. That one is also simple. If you are going to use field level mics (to get a much better quality of sound) to record the shows, the engineer can't possibly move them out any more than they already are. As it is, there is too much phase cancellation and things like that caused by sounds reaching the two mics at slightly different times..... so they can't spread them further, and they can't put them closer together because then we would lose even more sound from the corps when they are not front and center. Therefore, the only logical solution, is to instruct the corps to spread their speakers apart more (and not have any pointing towards the middle). In addition to providing a better balance for the live broadcasts, a wider spread will create better projection to the audience seated higher up, the audience seated more on the sides, and the judges in the box. The listening audience which is front and center can already hear the front ensemble clearly because of their closer proximity. Let's please fix this sooner than later.... it's so simple. it has been discussed on here that in enclosed stadiums ( using that term since calling LOS a dome upsets some people), that certain requencies of a lower octave range due to tend to be amplified even more. other than that, I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 it has been discussed on here that in enclosed stadiums ( using that term since calling LOS a dome upsets some people), that certain requencies of a lower octave range due to tend to be amplified even more. other than that, I agree There may be a slight increase in the amplification of the lowest sounds. This would apply to the thunderous goo, but also bass drums, gongs, etc... And the stadiums are so large that the extra sounds are reverberations which generally occur significantly after the initial sounds are made. LOS is such a large space that other than the drum line, it is very difficult to tell where all the echo is coming from (unless it is a clean brass release or something like that). Also, the exact position you are listening from in the "enclosed stadium" would have a much much bigger effect on what gets amplified more. So yes, the amps do add to the huge echo, but I can't see how the direct sound coming from them would be perceived as "louder." In other words, for the majority of the audience, synths are probably just as bad outdoors an in. I believe the misnomer came about simply because so many of the biggest shows are now indoors.... I would venture to say most on this forum experience more drum corps inside than out nowadays..... but if you read reviews, people are just as upset after hearing too much amps at places like Allentown as other venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 There may be a slight increase in the amplification of the lowest sounds. This would apply to the thunderous goo, but also bass drums, gongs, etc... And the stadiums are so large that the extra sounds are reverberations which generally occur significantly after the initial sounds are made. LOS is such a large space that other than the drum line, it is very difficult to tell where all the echo is coming from (unless it is a clean brass release or something like that). Also, the exact position you are listening from in the "enclosed stadium" would have a much much bigger effect on what gets amplified more. So yes, the amps do add to the huge echo, but I can't see how the direct sound coming from them would be perceived as "louder." In other words, for the majority of the audience, synths are probably just as bad outdoors an in. I believe the misnomer came about simply because so many of the biggest shows are now indoors.... I would venture to say most on this forum experience more drum corps inside than out nowadays..... but if you read reviews, people are just as upset after hearing too much amps at places like Allentown as other venues. IMO, I have had issues at Allentown, but more isolated than widespread. I know in Indy last year more than half the corps made my ### vibrate when they hit the really low notes.....3 times that of what did it in Allentown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 There may be a slight increase in the amplification of the lowest sounds. This would apply to the thunderous goo, but also bass drums, gongs, etc... And the stadiums are so large that the extra sounds are reverberations which generally occur significantly after the initial sounds are made. LOS is such a large space that other than the drum line, it is very difficult to tell where all the echo is coming from (unless it is a clean brass release or something like that). Also, the exact position you are listening from in the "enclosed stadium" would have a much much bigger effect on what gets amplified more. So yes, the amps do add to the huge echo, but I can't see how the direct sound coming from them would be perceived as "louder." In other words, for the majority of the audience, synths are probably just as bad outdoors an in. I believe the misnomer came about simply because so many of the biggest shows are now indoors.... I would venture to say most on this forum experience more drum corps inside than out nowadays..... but if you read reviews, people are just as upset after hearing too much amps at places like Allentown as other venues. High pass filter to attenuate the goo. I even heard bass drum goo (both concert and marching) on the system I was watching on. Placement / orientation of the speakers will help but the problem is unavoidable. Ideally you want to hear the same thing the judges do. But you're going to get all kinds of contamination if you place the mics there. IMO the only answer is to condition the sound before it hits the feed. Should not be all that difficult to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbg Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Spirit won the goo award last night - from someone who was in the stands. So Spirit won the "Thunderous Goo" awards last night.....hhmm.....Spirt was also 14th in Music Ensemble.....go figure....maybe judges do take into consideration an over balance from the electronics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Audio engineer from the San Antonio event weighing in.... Saw a lot of comments on the show thread speculating on whether the prominence of electronic sounds was actual, or a function of mic placement. Two thoughts on that. 1. Based on what I have heard viewing the corps live, it seems that more of them have been boosting A&E levels than reducing them. It is reasonable to conclude that this is a reflection of what the community of judges/designers/instructors considers to be the desired balance. Fan opinions, for reasons already discussed on DCP, will vary. Just as a few examples....in June, I recall Blue Stars and Spirit being the loudest amplifiers. Blue Stars have turned the knob down since then. Spirit, on the other hand, is pumping those synth-bass notes even louder than before....so loud that the ground, er, rubber under my feet was vibrating. On the plus side, I'd like to thank their sound board operator for fading so we could hear the flugel soloist, being careful to wait until the solo was completed before dialing in the thickly-scored mallet parts that follow. Another corps that stood out for loud A&E was Bluecoats, while Cadets seem to have tempered their board settings a bit since Denver. 2. From what little I've had time to listen to, my impression is that the recordings provide a realistic impression of what fans in the front half of the seating area are experiencing in terms of balance. Yes, the amps really are that loud. On the other hand, upper deck dwellers will tell you that the recordings sound nothing like what they hear live. I should hope so - clarity at that distance is not suitable for recording. Anyway, there's no easy fix. All the talk about lateral mic positioning (whether the mics are "lined up" with the speakers) matters little, compared to the fact that the speakers are staged in front of all other sound sources. That additional proximity will make A&E more prominent in the balance at closer vantage points. Bottom line is, if the corps provide a product that sounds balanced in the lower seating area (not just at the press box), it will sound fine on the recordings. And shouldn't that be the objective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexL Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) This is only one symptom of a larger problem that has been there since we started allowing amplification, that now there are dramatically different experiences musically of shows, depending on where you are relative to the placement of the speakers at any given show. If youre at one wrong extreme (as apparently sometimes the mics end up being at the shows), you get blasted with it. If youre at the other end of the extreme, the front ensemble is way under-balanced due to you not getting much of the amplification effect. Edited July 25, 2011 by AlexL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rd Glasgow BB Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The GE judges are in the best position to watch & listen to a show so why aren't the live broadcast mics placed next to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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