Big Bad Bari Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 An early season (not just early, first) show having poor attendance? What are the odds? LOL When your organization is well run and a spectacle, people show up every time... not just the end. The NFL is a great example of this. Drum Corps has a definate quality curve and early shows are well known for not being crowd pleasers. You're kidding here, right? Almost no season in modern times has started with a slate of corps doing completed, if not perfected, shows. But BITD (and not that long ago!) corps new that fans came to early shows to be entertained just like later season shows. They made shows that could be learned by the opening show, and used the rest of the season to tweak and clean. Because of the focus on design complexity in modern times sometimes the corps aren't even fielding a complete show. If the Houston show was so grueling for the corps to accomplish, what with the extended travel and all, how's come they were able to put together a completed show for the first TOC competition? So what happened in all the other recent years? The fans have been trained that early shows are crap, because many corps place the emphasis on winning the judges, instead of the fans. It's become acceptable that corps could park and blow for the last 3 minutes because, AWWWW, it's so HAAARRRDDD. Yet they pulled it off for Houston when it was "their" show. Maybe Houston will begin to turn that Queen Mary and we can, once again, enjoy a full season of shows, not two-thirds of one. You know, like the old days. EDIT: And you said "...G8 or not". Houston was the first G8 show, ever. Were you there? You can't convince me that the G8 will, for very long, expend all that money and effort to play to an empty stands. Well you are right except that in Northern Califirnia we used to havethis thing called "The Evaluation Show" it was late in May I believe maybe very early June... We would come from Concord to San Jose to do OUR INCOMPLETE SHOW THERE EVERY YEAR! I marched in MANY FIRST SHOW sellouts in the DCM era... thank you very much. And yes, when the G8 was supposed to stimulate so much interest, you would expect the shows, to at least have more attendance than the 7 on 7 tournament that was there the few weeks before. Some things work and some things do not... But the overall concept caught on by mid season! Unintentionally, or not... you are proving my point about the Texas TOC shows. As long as the corps are standing still and bring painting scaffolding unexplained on the field, no one is going to show up then. The people paying at the beginning of the season aren't getting their money's worth. Especially in comparison to the product you get in July/August. Before it was just execution that got better. Now we have corps that don't even perform entire song selections, or stand still the last few minutes of the show....not to mention unfinished props, practice guard equipment, etc. So the people going to this show knew there would be unused scaffolding on the field full of incomplete shows? Hmmmmmmmm... smart crowd... lol I love how the narrative around here is that "marching band" basically just means "BOA style" competitive marching band..... and that it has always been exactly the way it is now.... This is positively absurd of course. When the majority of Americans think of "marching band".... obviously there would be a variety of definitions, but I would bet by far the majority would think of it as the activity that goes on during football game halftimes. They would not think of some artistic, electrified, highly competitive pageantry like we have at BOA (and DCI really). The fact is that some types of marching bands have evolved just as much as drum corps over the years, and nationally competitive high school marching band has always (at least to my knowledge) somewhat resembled the trends and styles of competitive drum corps. Therefore, I would actually define this BOA style competitive marching band as "corps style" marching band...... Both BOA and DCI are really in the same category just with different approaches. I see no reason not to keep calling drum corps.... drum corps. That is what old style drum corps evolved into. It really hardly resembles a "true" marching band at all. Taking that a step further.... why not call BOA style marching band "Drum and Wind Corps," or something like that? Split Hairs much? Oh My God... I was recruited directly our of a MARCHING BAND in 1979... I kept going back to my HS band in the winter and to my Corps in the Summer. Other than in the corps EVERYONE wanted to be there and tried as hard as they could... There was little difference even back then! It should be named something more mainstream and less galvanizing. Maybe it is WE drum corps nuts that make it hard for others to join in! Hmmmmmm... please read my above post It was splitting hairs and off topic... OK, sure, you can say whatever you want. But let me ask you to think about this: You have some friends who show interest in this thing you call drum corps, and they want to go to your show with you. Which just so happens in the Houston show. And when they ask you what you expect, you respond: "Well, some marching competition for the first three minutes, then a standstill concert of the rest of their show music." That's OK with you? That's how you'd like your friends to get their first experience in drum corps? And when they raise their eyebrows and show doubt, you can say "Yeah, it's too bad. But by the third or fourth show they'll have the whole marching thing down." Really? I would contend that a sloppy drum corps show by any top-12 corps will blow away the senses of an inexperienced viewer. A full, but dirty, show at least gives him the whole experience. I think the corps need to get a clean and complete product onto the field to address this type of concern but since back in 1981, 82 and 83 we couldn't get that done by the evaluation show I am assuming they cannot do it now either... Blue Devils play stuff for years that is apparently too esoteric, can't please people. Too complex of themes to abstract ideas. They play Burt Bacharach.... Burt ####### Bacharach.... and build a house with ####### lincoln logs... can't get more middle of the road and tangible than that... and yet they still can't please people. What more can you do? What do people really want? How to please you people? Daniel... You people? lol But I do share your feelings on this matter... By far THE most accessible hornbook since at least 2005 and we have screamers, awesome low brass, clean drums and heck the only show designed around the 60's and cannot get old folks to fall in love with it... I am pretty confused by this... I personally have not connected with a show like this in years... I feel reborn into Drum Corps again (Or Summer Marching Band or whatever) A drastic change with the judging system/sheets needs to be made before that is ever going to happen IMO...I'm not sure if the TOC "sheet" experiment is the entire answer either. What have been some of the collective opinions about the "new sheets" by the corps that have been part of the changes? Will non-G8 corps be able to provide their feedback if DCI chooses to integrate them next year into the judging system or will they just have to accept the changes? How does James Mason feel about the new "entertainment" component since he was instrumental in requesting these changes? Are these changes going to really be radical enough to effect any "real" change or is it going to be business as usual approach? Just a few random thoughts... I would have to think that NON-G8 corps will certainly get to speak and vote on the subject since there isn't a single G8 director on the DCI board anymore... You have nothing to fear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 What have been some of the collective opinions about the "new sheets" by the corps that have been part of the changes? Will non-G8 corps be able to provide their feedback if DCI chooses to integrate them next year into the judging system or will they just have to accept the changes? How does James Mason feel about the new "entertainment" component since he was instrumental in requesting these changes? Are these changes going to really be radical enough to effect any "real" change or is it going to be business as usual approach? I think the DCI executive staff has the authority to change the judging sheets without a board vote (of course the board could change that authority if they chose), so whatever changes are coming won't necessarily be voted on. Honestly, though I'm not sure what the practical differences are. What's the point of changing the sheets if the difference turns out to just be a couple of tenths here and there in the end? The order and relative scores at the TOC shows are the same as at the regionals. So... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I think the DCI executive staff has the authority to change the judging sheets without a board vote (of course the board could change that authority if they chose), so whatever changes are coming won't necessarily be voted on. Honestly, though I'm not sure what the practical differences are. What's the point of changing the sheets if the difference turns out to just be a couple of tenths here and there in the end? The order and relative scores at the TOC shows are the same as at the regionals. So... Exactly my point...At face value the new sheets don't seem to really effect any "real" change at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I would have to think that NON-G8 corps will certainly get to speak and vote on the subject since there isn't a single G8 director on the DCI board anymore... You have nothing to fear! "I think the DCI executive staff has the authority to change the judging sheets without a board vote", according to skywhopper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And in first place~ Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Seems to me that marching bands used to imitate drum corps. At least they did where I live. Now it's the other way around. Shows may get large crowds but that is because there are still throngs of us old school fans who still attend shows because we love drum corps even if we do not like the direction corps have gone. Personally, if I wanted to see marching bands I would go to a band competition. I have been with the activity for over 50 years and will gladly aim my money other directions. And with the economic situation as it is, it seems to me that DCI might just care about how some of us feel about things. Obviously they could not care less. I used to belong to five booster clubs and dropped all of them. I just wish you guys who think this direction DCI went years ago is so great would back off a bit. Some of us need to vent and whine at times. As far as attendance goes, I was at both Finals in Buffalo. One had 30,0000 and second one had I think 22,000. I seriously doubt Indy gets that many as attendance has decreased over the years. Too many took up needlepoint or stamp collecting, I guess. Which means that much less loot DCI has to play with. Bring on the clarinets and feature twirlers!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yeah, especially in that Jan. meeting. That's always a good one to go and hangsnoop around at. take phone calls right after it. even better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Well, just saying that this seems to be a year where everyone has had plenty of good sized shows. Corps outside the top 8 had a lot of big shows, more than usual. Also, early shows in Texas... not many corps outside of the top 8 were ready that early, and they took on some considerable expenses and risk for this experiment. There is no loss on the part of any other corps, as most of these other corps really aren't doing any major shows that early. Most don't even have a complete show at that point. Anyway, this year seems like it is a much better balance and seems to be a good mix with TOC and larger lineups for other shows. maybe. but you do realize that this promotes the super 8 at the expense of everything else. Remember DCI is supposed to be about the whole, not the few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 maybe. but you do realize that this promotes the super 8 at the expense of everything else. Remember DCI is supposed to be about the whole, not the few. I don't necessarily agree, who are we promoting to? If you know anything about corps and still want to attend then you do... So say we get some Joe Popcorn eaters to go to one of the as you call it SUPER 8 shows and they really like it. So later that year they see an advertisement for another drum corps show but now the bigger corps are on national tour so they go to a show with corps that do not put on as polished a show... In fact let's say the performance quality is far lower than what Joe experienced last time... Will Joe be back? This may be an UNPOPULAR topic Jeff but it certainly is something to consider... I am sorry but... All corps are not created equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I don't necessarily agree, who are we promoting to? If you know anything about corps and still want to attend then you do... So say we get some Joe Popcorn eaters to go to one of the as you call it SUPER 8 shows and they really like it. So later that year they see an advertisement for another drum corps show but now the bigger corps are on national tour so they go to a show with corps that do not put on as polished a show... In fact let's say the performance quality is far lower than what Joe experienced last time... Will Joe be back? This may be an UNPOPULAR topic Jeff but it certainly is something to consider... I am sorry but... All corps are not created equal. do you want 23 full corps....or just 8? Do you want to keep OC, which feeds kids to World...or do you want them gone so only the top of the top get the cash. no all corps are not created equal. but when I look athe ego filed monsters of MLB or the NFL, they do a far better job of promoting the teams not at the top than DCI does, and these guys are playing with far more money than even Hop could burn thru in a year. So, when you run a super show in Texas...why the hell shouldn't you make it say a 10 corps show and give the local guys some love? Why couldn't Surf get some love in their home state Sunday? Spirit down at Crowns show? madison or the Colts at Phantoms? I'm not saying they have to have all 23. But, maybe being smart and including corps local to the area would be good for all, not just 8. which since the one added in as a compromise is in danger of falling out, I wonder how much G7 stuff will be reborn this fall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 "I think the DCI executive staff has the authority to change the judging sheets without a board vote", according to skywhopper Sure they would and it would stick until the non G8 directors who ARE on the board called an emergency meeting and got rid of them... The board has the ultimate control. The board is ALL non G8 so if there are changes they will begin to favor lower placing corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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