GUARDLING Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Gee, how about the possibility that the previous night's winner just had themselves an 'off' night and someone else did their 'show of the year', and wound up beating corps number 1???? It was very possible BITD, but, I'm sad to say, not so much now. All one has to do is to look at the records of winners of the different major shows, usually within a couple of weeks or days of each other. Lots of different title holders for national titles. But then again, there is NO SLOTTING in drum corps, right? Just sayin'. Ray a few tenths difference sure...4 or 5 or more points and a flip flop of 4 positions..cummon!!!! IS there slotting now...to a degree sure....i know theres such a thing as neighborhooding BUT to think it wasnt a hot mess back in the day with judging, so random and a judge actually having the power to change a show outcome, was crazy. Tick system was just as subjective if not worse than opinions now....JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No system will be flawless. Under the tick system, it was not unheard of that a show that was clean would earn a higher score than one that was more complicated and often times more creative. Today’s system is so subjective, it can rely a great deal on personal taste of the judges. A combination of objective/subjective would probably work. That being said, keep in mind the powerhouses of today, particularly Blue Devils, SCV, and Phantom were powerhouses under the tick system. The Cadets, Madison, and Cavilers have fared well under both systems of judging too. I’m also pretty convinced that we’d still have the same winners in August under either system, but individual shows would probably be more exciting if there were at least some objective categories. A corps that fared well one evening could be challenged the next night, and the finalists would not all but be predetermined. people would like to believe it was objective under the tick system back then...it wasnt it was just as subjective......a mistake a tick.. it was a hot mess with very random outcomes drastically changing night to night...DRASTIC, not just 1 position or a point.Audiances loved this I guess. Little accountability on a judges part either. Not that there's much now either but they pretend at least now there is..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paradiddle Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I grew up in the Roslindale section of Boston, adjacent to Hyde Park and the Most Precious Blood parish. I also marched in the era where corps pride stood above all else. We were local kids and stayed local. Occasionally, we'd have a kid move in from out of state to march - but it was rare. I always remember seeing the back of the red BAC equipment truck - the "Old English" font - the pride and fear that it presented to those of us "young" kids that knew what it meant when we were in smaller, CYO programs. I for one, truly believe that we have a responsibility to teach history to our young people. Without the knowledge of our past, we are condemned to repeat the mistakes of others. I would hope every member of Boston would be made aware of the history, the struggles, the transitions, the failures and successes of past corps - so that they can continue with the rich and proud traditions for future members. 40 years ago, a 27th Lancer would never write something in support of BAC and vice versa. Times have changed, but Boston is still alive !!! I have a friend of mine from Dorchester and we raced motorcycles together for years in the 70's and 80's. Then one day in 1994 I said that I had re-discovered something from my youth, drum and bugle corps and that I was joining the Crusader Sr. Corps. and that I needed to find the rehearsal site and I was unfamiliar with all of Dorchester. He said he was VERY familiar and that his whole family was in St. Kevins Emerald Knights. He knew exactly where the hall was in Lower Mills. In his family he was NOT allowed to associate with any Boston Crusaders. His brother was SKEK DM in 62 and my friend grew up as a Chip, Gem and a SK Emerald Knight. Funny that we never knew that about each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navillus WP Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) I have a friend of mine from Dorchester and we raced motorcycles together for years in the 70's and 80's. Then one day in 1994 I said that I had re-discovered something from my youth, drum and bugle corps and that I was joining the Crusader Sr. Corps. and that I needed to find the rehearsal site and I was unfamiliar with all of Dorchester. He said he was VERY familiar and that his whole family was in St. Kevins Emerald Knights. He knew exactly where the hall was in Lower Mills. In his family he was NOT allowed to associate with any Boston Crusaders. His brother was SKEK DM in 62 and my friend grew up as a Chip, Gem and a SK Emerald Knight. Funny that we never knew that about each other. 1) At Eddie - Burlington Citations? the name "Billy McDonough" ring a bell? 2) The loyalty of "Kevin's Pride" was almost iron-clad. Unlike today's "corpies" frequently changing corps in search of titles, Until the end of SKEK's last competive season in 1968, I do not recall every encountering anyone leaving Kevin's to corps-jump. Entire families marched ONLY with SKEK, generaltion after generation. (The same might be said for Charlestown's Majestic Knights - "Now and Forever.") Edited January 20, 2012 by Navillus WP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyoldfrt Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1) At Eddie - Burlington Citations? the name "Billy McDonough" ring a bell? 2) The loyalty of "Kevin's Pride" was almost iron-clad. Unlike today's "corpies" frequently changing corps in search of titles, Until the end of SKEK's last competive season in 1968, I do not recall every encountering anyone leaving Kevin's to corps-jump. Entire families marched ONLY with SKEK, generaltion after generation. (The same might be said for Charlestown's Majestic Knights - "Now and Forever.") I was a member of the Braintree Warriors BITD even though I was from Dorchester. When I left St. Brendan's Band with a lot of the other older kids I desperately wanted to join St. Kevins. But! In those days there was a strict Release Rule. Any kid who was in a CYO unit had to get written permission from the rectory of that parish if they wanted to join another CYO unit. All the kid who left St Brendans got releases. Myself, and two other kids didn't. Kenny McDonald was a lead trumpet. So was Carol Nelson. I was the bands only drummer. We were deemed essential personnel. We were not flattered. Our friends all went on to fine careers in St. Kevins. Kenny and I joined the Braintree Warriors, the only non-CYO corps south of Boston. We found that we liked it just fine. Carol, who was the best musician in the band, just said to hell with it, and gave up music entirely. That was a sinful waste. She played marvelously. The Warriors had a very good drum line. I was very happy to be a part of it. The next year, 1957, two kids joined the corps from St Kevins. At first we couldn't believe it. They had beaten us like rented mules in 1956. Tom McAndrew and his brother Paul were not at all happy about being in the Warriors. Their parents had bought a house in the leafy burbs of Braintree and left the city life behind. Neither of the kids was old enough to drive, and their dad refused to drive them all the way back into the city on school nights to rehearse. So the boys had a choice; forget about drum corps, or join either the Warriors, or the St Thomas More Cadets. (aside to DCI era people: Braintree had two, count'em, two good corps, plus three feeder corps. FIVE drum corps in one small town.) To make things even worse for the McAndrew brothers, the third brother, Jim, was the soprano soloist in St.Kevins Emerald Gems, the Knight's feeder corps, and he was allowed to stay in St Kevins because the Gems rehearsed on the weekends when Mr. McAndrew could drive him to rehearsals. During their entire sojourn in the Warriors both Tom and Paul remained steadfast Emerald Knights. They constantly wore St Kevins Jackets and T shirts to Warrior rehearsals. This tended to be viewed negatively by the rest of us because St Kevins pounded us fairly consistantly during those years. At the same time Tom made it plain that he'd rather be in SKEK, and that, unlike the rest of us, he had no interest in joining the Princemen when he aged out. He was a fanatical fan of the Reilly Raiders. When He aged out he moved to Philadelphia just to march in Reilly. It was the first time I ever recall something like that happening. As was the case in many things Tom McAndrew was ahead of his time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajlisko Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) ... unlike the rest of us, he had no interest in joining the Princemen when he aged out. He was a fanatical fan of the Reilly Raiders. When He aged out he moved to Philadelphia just to march in Reilly. It was the first time I ever recall something like that happening. As was the case in many things Tom McAndrew was ahead of his time. ... and when Tom later joined the NY Skyliners, he was appropriately dubbed "Boston Tom" ... but, he led us to believe that he left Kevin's for the Crusaders when his parents moved - not the Warriors ... anyway ... a terrific talent ... he later played several years with Sky's Alumni ... Andy Edited January 21, 2012 by ajlisko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyoldfrt Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1) At Eddie - Burlington Citations? the name "Billy McDonough" ring a bell? 2) The loyalty of "Kevin's Pride" was almost iron-clad. Unlike today's "corpies" frequently changing corps in search of titles, Until the end of SKEK's last competive season in 1968, I do not recall every encountering anyone leaving Kevin's to corps-jump. Entire families marched ONLY with SKEK, generaltion after generation. (The same might be said for Charlestown's Majestic Knights - "Now and Forever.") I was a member of the Braintree Warriors BITD even though I was from Dorchester. When I left St. Brendan's Band with a lot of the other older kids I desperately wanted to join St. Kevins. But! In those days there was a strict Release Rule. Any kid who was in a CYO unit had to get written permission from the rectory of that parish if they wanted to join another CYO unit. All the kids who left St Brendans got releases. Myself, and two other kids didn't. Kenny McDonald was a lead trumpet. So was Carol Nelson. I was the bands only drummer. We were deemed essential personnel. We were not flattered. Our friends all went on to fine careers in St. Kevins. Kenny and I joined the Braintree Warriors, the only non-CYO corps south of Boston. We found that we liked it just fine. Carol, who was the best musician in the band, just said to hell with it, and gave up music entirely. That was a sinful waste. She played marvelously. The Warriors had a very good drum line. I was very happy to be a part of it. The next year, 1957, two kids joined the corps from St Kevins. At first we couldn't believe it. They had beaten us like rented mules in 1956. Tom McAndrew and his brother Paul were not at all happy about being in the Warriors. Their parents had bought a house in the leafy burbs of Braintree and left the city life behind. Neither of the kids was old enough to drive, and their dad refused to drive them all the way back into the city on school nights to rehearse. So the boys had a choice; forget about drum corps, or join either the Warriors, or the St Thomas More Cadets. (aside to DCI era people: Braintree had two, count'em, two good corps, plus three feeder corps. FIVE drum corps in one small town.) To make things even worse for the McAndrew brothers, the third brother, Jim, was the soprano soloist in St.Kevins Emerald Gems, the Knight's feeder corps, and he was allowed to stay in St Kevins because the Gems rehearsed on the weekends when Mr. McAndrew could drive him to rehearsals. During their entire sojourn in the Warriors both Tom and Paul remained steadfast Emerald Knights. They constantly wore St Kevins jackets and T shirts to Warrior rehearsals. This tended to be viewed negatively by the rest of us because St Kevins pounded us fairly consistantly during those years. At the same time Tom made it plain that he'd rather be in SKEK, and that, unlike the rest of us, he had no interest in joining the Princemen when he aged out. He was a fanatical fan of the Reilly Raiders. When He aged out he moved to Philadelphia primarily to march in Reilly. It was the first time I ever recall something like that happening. As was the case in many things Tom McAndrew was ahead of his time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyroo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I was a member of the Braintree Warriors BITD even though I was from Dorchester. When I left St. Brendan's Band with a lot of the other older kids I desperately wanted to join St. Kevins. But! In those days there was a strict Release Rule. Any kid who was in a CYO unit had to get written permission from the rectory of that parish if they wanted to join another CYO unit. All the kid who left St Brendans got releases. Myself, and two other kids didn't. Kenny McDonald was a lead trumpet. So was Carol Nelson. I was the bands only drummer. We were deemed essential personnel. We were not flattered. Our friends all went on to fine careers in St. Kevins. Kenny and I joined the Braintree Warriors, the only non-CYO corps south of Boston. We found that we liked it just fine. Carol, who was the best musician in the band, just said to hell with it, and gave up music entirely. That was a sinful waste. She played marvelously. The Warriors had a very good drum line. I was very happy to be a part of it. The next year, 1957, two kids joined the corps from St Kevins. At first we couldn't believe it. They had beaten us like rented mules in 1956. Tom McAndrew and his brother Paul were not at all happy about being in the Warriors. Their parents had bought a house in the leafy burbs of Braintree and left the city life behind. Neither of the kids was old enough to drive, and their dad refused to drive them all the way back into the city on school nights to rehearse. So the boys had a choice; forget about drum corps, or join either the Warriors, or the St Thomas More Cadets. (aside to DCI era people: Braintree had two, count'em, two good corps, plus three feeder corps. FIVE drum corps in one small town.) To make things even worse for the McAndrew brothers, the third brother, Jim, was the soprano soloist in St.Kevins Emerald Gems, the Knight's feeder corps, and he was allowed to stay in St Kevins because the Gems rehearsed on the weekends when Mr. McAndrew could drive him to rehearsals. During their entire sojourn in the Warriors both Tom and Paul remained steadfast Emerald Knights. They constantly wore St Kevins Jackets and T shirts to Warrior rehearsals. This tended to be viewed negatively by the rest of us because St Kevins pounded us fairly consistantly during those years. At the same time Tom made it plain that he'd rather be in SKEK, and that, unlike the rest of us, he had no interest in joining the Princemen when he aged out. He was a fanatical fan of the Reilly Raiders. When He aged out he moved to Philadelphia just to march in Reilly. It was the first time I ever recall something like that happening. As was the case in many things Tom McAndrew was ahead of his time. A great tale, Gil, and very indicative of "how it was" in the Fifties and early Sixties in the Boston area, and particularly among CYO Circuit corps. We knew very few people from the corps against which we competed, because they were "one of them." As I think I've mentioned before, we (St. Mary's Cardinals) didn't have a member not from the parish until the mid-Fifties, when we took in four or five guys from the PLAV White Eagles from Salem. And the only reasons they were allowed to join were (1) they were Catholic and (2) they didn't need releases because PLAV wasn't a CYO corps. On the other side of the coin, I can only remember one guy through '61 who left the Cardinals to go to another corps. And he was very up front about it; he said he wanted to win a Nationals before he aged out. He didn't, although he did come close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyoldfrt Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I was a member of the Braintree Warriors BITD even though I was from Dorchester. When I left St. Brendan's Band with a lot of the other older kids I desperately wanted to join St. Kevins. But! In those days there was a strict Release Rule. Any kid who was in a CYO unit had to get written permission from the rectory of that parish if they wanted to join another CYO unit. All the kids who left St Brendans got releases. Myself, and two other kids didn't. Kenny McDonald was a lead trumpet. So was Carol Nelson. I was the bands only drummer. We were deemed essential personnel. We were not flattered. Our friends all went on to fine careers in St. Kevins. Kenny and I joined the Braintree Warriors, the only non-CYO corps south of Boston. We found that we liked it just fine. Carol, who was the best musician in the band, just said to hell with it, and gave up music entirely. That was a sinful waste. She played marvelously. The Warriors had a very good drum line. I was very happy to be a part of it. The next year, 1957, two kids joined the corps from St Kevins. At first we couldn't believe it. They had beaten us like rented mules in 1956. Tom McAndrew and his brother Paul were not at all happy about being in the Warriors. Their parents had bought a house in the leafy burbs of Braintree and left the city life behind. Neither of the kids was old enough to drive, and their dad refused to drive them all the way back into the city on school nights to rehearse. So the boys had a choice; forget about drum corps, or join either the Warriors, or the St Thomas More Cadets. (aside to DCI era people: Braintree had two, count'em, two good corps, plus three feeder corps. FIVE drum corps in one small town.) To make things even worse for the McAndrew brothers, the third brother, Jim, was the soprano soloist in St.Kevins Emerald Gems, the Knight's feeder corps, and he was allowed to stay in St Kevins because the Gems rehearsed on the weekends when Mr. McAndrew could drive him to rehearsals. During their entire sojourn in the Warriors both Tom and Paul remained steadfast Emerald Knights. They constantly wore St Kevins jackets and T shirts to Warrior rehearsals. This tended to be viewed negatively by the rest of us because St Kevins pounded us fairly consistantly during those years. At the same time Tom made it plain that he'd rather be in SKEK, and that, unlike the rest of us, he had no interest in joining the Princemen when he aged out. He was a fanatical fan of the Reilly Raiders. When He aged out he moved to Philadelphia primarily to march in Reilly. It was the first time I ever recall something like that happening. As was the case in many things Tom McAndrew was ahead of his time. Please excuse the double post. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paradiddle Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 1) At Eddie - Burlington Citations? the name "Billy McDonough" ring a bell? 2) The loyalty of "Kevin's Pride" was almost iron-clad. Unlike today's "corpies" frequently changing corps in search of titles, Until the end of SKEK's last competive season in 1968, I do not recall every encountering anyone leaving Kevin's to corps-jump. Entire families marched ONLY with SKEK, generaltion after generation. (The same might be said for Charlestown's Majestic Knights - "Now and Forever.") Yes I remember Billy. He lived on Lexington St I remember. Are you in contact with him ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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