ShortAndFast Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 When was it that 1 of the major shows had a blind draw for performance order? I'm thinking that it was Prelims years ago. I'd LOVE to see that again. No slotting. I wonder how that would work out. Thoughts? Randomizing in groups of 3 has no effect on placement. Unusual performance orders at home shows have no effect on placement. Why would randomizing a whole show be any different? If you believe that intentional or unconscious slotting by the judges is a serious problem, you're going to have to do much more than randomize a single show to get rid of it. I guarantee that every Minneapolis judge already knows that, e.g., Crown & BD are the two highest scoring groups in the country. If you make a judge watch Crown at 4:30 and BD at 9:30, you make it harder for them to do an accurate head-to-head comparison of those groups, but both will still place near the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Randomizing in groups of 3 has no effect on placement. Unusual performance orders at home shows have no effect on placement. Why would randomizing a whole show be any different? If you believe that intentional or unconscious slotting by the judges is a serious problem, you're going to have to do much more than randomize a single show to get rid of it. I guarantee that every Minneapolis judge already knows that, e.g., Crown & BD are the two highest scoring groups in the country. If you make a judge watch Crown at 4:30 and BD at 9:30, you make it harder for them to do an accurate head-to-head comparison of those groups, but both will still place near the top. agreed - groupings would be about the same but head to head matchups might come out differently when corps go on next to their immediate competition or an hour or more earlier. It's tough to differentiate between to almost equal groups when you see one then you see 5-10 other corps then you see the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetiredJedi Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Randomizing in groups of 3 has no effect on placement. Unusual performance orders at home shows have no effect on placement. Why would randomizing a whole show be any different? If you believe that intentional or unconscious slotting by the judges is a serious problem, you're going to have to do much more than randomize a single show to get rid of it. I guarantee that every Minneapolis judge already knows that, e.g., Crown & BD are the two highest scoring groups in the country. If you make a judge watch Crown at 4:30 and BD at 9:30, you make it harder for them to do an accurate head-to-head comparison of those groups, but both will still place near the top. For clarity, I didn't say I believe slotting is a serious problem. I know that the judges know what all the Corps have been scoring and placing. I'm suggesting that it may be possible for judges to have a little more freedom to score each show on it's own merit. Possibly. Maybe break into 2 groups? 1-8 and 9-22? The format now seems anti-climactic. A random order within those 2 suggested groups shakes it up. Not trying to be all DCP with this question... Are you saying the judges are not capable of scoring accurately in a random order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 For clarity, I didn't say I believe slotting is a serious problem. I know that the judges know what all the Corps have been scoring and placing. I'm suggesting that it may be possible for judges to have a little more freedom to score each show on it's own merit. Possibly. Maybe break into 2 groups? 1-8 and 9-22? The format now seems anti-climactic. A random order within those 2 suggested groups shakes it up. Not trying to be all DCP with this question... Are you saying the judges are not capable of scoring accurately in a random order? I think DCI asks judges to make pretty fine distinctions between groups of very similar ability levels, closer than most bands in most fall circuits for example. The judge's best answer to "A or B" comes if he sees A right before/after B. If he has to think back "now what was A like 3 hours ago", it's harder to answer confidently. For shows like Finals, there's no substitute for having #2 and #1 perform next to each other. If Minneapolis was totally randomized, the judges would still get everyone into the correct box & more-or-less the right part of the box. But I'd bet the judges themselves would be less confident that they got all the rankings correct among similar groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetiredJedi Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I think DCI asks judges to make pretty fine distinctions between groups of very similar ability levels, closer than most bands in most fall circuits for example. The judge's best answer to "A or B" comes if he sees A right before/after B. If he has to think back "now what was A like 3 hours ago", it's harder to answer confidently. For shows like Finals, there's no substitute for having #2 and #1 perform next to each other. If Minneapolis was totally randomized, the judges would still get everyone into the correct box & more-or-less the right part of the box. But I'd bet the judges themselves would be less confident that they got all the rankings correct among similar groups. I see what you're saying. You make some valid points. I'd say that there are 2 viewpoints: The judges and the fans. As a judge, what you're saying makes total sense. As a fan, it feels like the judges are rubber stamping the placement. (Speaking in general terms) I really hope that I'm articulating what I'm thinking. Maybe I've got some romantic memory of how '88 Finals went down. A semi-random order. Scores from Prelims weren't announced (Again, if my memory isn't failing me) Finals night - BAM! Madison takes the title! The random performance order added to the magic of that night (for me anyway). I think the judges got it right. There was an energy present. The anticipation. There was no slotting so it was "anything could happen". As a fan, it was wild! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 I see what you're saying. You make some valid points. I'd say that there are 2 viewpoints: The judges and the fans. As a judge, what you're saying makes total sense. As a fan, it feels like the judges are rubber stamping the placement. (Speaking in general terms) I really hope that I'm articulating what I'm thinking. Maybe I've got some romantic memory of how '88 Finals went down. A semi-random order. Scores from Prelims weren't announced (Again, if my memory isn't failing me) Finals night - BAM! Madison takes the title! The random performance order added to the magic of that night (for me anyway). I think the judges got it right. There was an energy present. The anticipation. There was no slotting so it was "anything could happen". As a fan, it was wild! yeah but Madison won Semis too, just noone in the audience knew that. The random order thing was kinda cool, and for us it was good and bad. Bad in that we went on 7th in the show after star and before BD which meant we weren't going on after Sky and Before Suncoast which would have maybe given us a chance to catch suncoast. Good in that at finals retreat we were in the middle of the field one side of the 50 with Star on the other side. It was kinda cool being in the middle of the field, although it would have been cooler if we had actually been in 6th place and in that spot in retreat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 updated for 7/13 scores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 updated for 7/15 shows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKTrumpetMom Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I have a question regarding the rankings on dci.org for July 10-16. Why are Blue Devils B and Vanguard Cadets on there, if anyone knows. Are they using the same sheets for Open Class as World Class? I know in the Prelims everyone from Open and World Class perform and using the same sheets, so there is the possibility that Open Class Corps could make finals, but are they starting that already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 updated for 7/16 shows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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