Judging in the '70s

[BlooFan]

So I didn't get into drum corps until 2007, and I really only watched corps from the '90s and '00s for the longest time. Recently I've been watching the performances of corps from the '70s on the Fan Network (and loving them) and given that I was nowhere near alive in that era, I don't really know what the judging structure was like in the early DCI days (or even before with AL and VFW). I figured you guys here would know the most about it, so perhaps you can explain it to me. I do know that the captions were much different (GE, M+M, Bugles, etc.) but I really don't know what the judges were looking for. Thanks a lot!

[MsBusDriver]

There are those that can answer in more detail than I can. But the main focus of judging was mostly on errors by members in each section. If someone committed an error, say, a flag or rifle was not in time with everyone else while spinning, then 1/10 of a point was deducted. Same if their hand positions or angle of equipment were not "perfect", then they were "ticked". The same thing can be said for the rest of the Corps. Fracks or horn angle off. Drum sticks not all the same height or any thing that stood out from the majority. Marching included intervals, heels together at a stop, moving at a stop, etc. All kinds of things. The list is fairly extensive.

There was tear down in scoring but also a build up in scoring like in General Effect, Visual and stuff like that. Everything was added up (build up) and then subtracted (ticks, penalties) and there is your score!

All of our time was spent "perfecting everything" down to the smallest thing, so that we wouldn't be ticked. As a member of the Guard, we spent hours and hours on timing, hand positions and equipment angles. It may not have seemed like we did much equipment "work" on the field, but if we didn't have to worry about being ticked for every little thing, then we could have done much much more! Exposure was the name of the game back in the day.

Hopes this helps a little. It's just a scratch of the surface.

[rudidrummer73]

Great question and thank you for asking! I don’t say that sarcastically, because writing this answer helps me to realize that the two different scoring systems really are the biggest change in the game.

My memory may be faulty, but if it is it is only by the percentages. The breakdown went something like this, execution drums 20 points, execution horns 20 points, execution M & M 30 points, and 10 points each in General Effect drums, horns and M & M. Built into each execution category was a credit category for the degree of difficulty for what you played or drill you marched. For example, in percussion, you had 15 points purely in execution and 5 points in difficulty. So a show in which your drum line made 18 mistakes marked by the judge and you played a pretty tough book and you got a 4.5 in difficulty, your execution drums score would be 17.7.

Execution judges were looking for how clean you played; attacks and releases clean, sticking or tounging clean, marching in step, lines straight, proper intervals. GE categories were a build up/credit situation where judges analyzed elements of musicianship; use of dynamics, tonal quality, integration of drill and music, use of guard (there was no dancing, no talking, grunting or counting to keep a cadence, only standard military commands were allowed to be uttered on the field.)

I think there is some unfairness inherent in the build up/credit system. I remember a drum judge giving a corps a full 5 in difficulty in the finals of a major show one year. My corps went on the field after they did and got a 4.7. At the judge’s critique after the show, our instructor met with the judge. The judge was quite complimentary toward our line and our instructor didn’t question our score. But, he did ask the judge this; “You never saw my line before tonight and before we came on the field you gave a 5 to someone in difficulty. If we came out and played a harder show than those other guys, what would you do? Can’t change their score or give us a 5.1. You would have screwed us.” Now days, if you establish a show as the standard by which you judge others…wouldn’t it take a bus accident to beat that standard?

I also think that today’s build up type of judging results in a more “inbred” type of show where the corps caters more to the judges than the audience. In the early 70s, GE judges started using cassette tapes to record their comments on each show. Before that, it was GE comments written on a form. At first, the recordings were helpful hearing the spot in the show the judge was commenting on. By the end of the first full season of the GE tapes we began to notice a kind of a “I’m smarter than you are/Can you top this” thing happening.

I find that to be prevalent today, to the point of compositions being written specifically for a corps show. In the “old days” arrangements were custom designed to fit a sound or style of a corps. But a piece specifically written for a show? In the “old days” the competitive key was how you played and not what you played.

Or something like that.

Edited July 9, 2012 by rudidrummer73

[BlooFan]

Wow, thanks a lot for the detailed answers! I can see the activity we have now is a LOT different compared to back then...couple follow-ups though:

Were the criteria and expectations of the corps similar in DCI to the other organizations like the AL and VFW? Did they need different things depending on the show sponsors, or was it all pretty similar?

Considering the ticks, were there different levels of penalties, or all one tenth? Like was a flag that was not spun in time the same as a dropped rifle (which I heard had to be then given to you by a judge)?

Did drill have to be symmetric? Or was that mainly because of tradition/the norm?

I'm sorry if this feels like a Spanish Inquisition, I'm just genuinely curious. You guys are a great help!

[MikeD]

Wow, thanks a lot for the detailed answers! I can see the activity we have now is a LOT different compared to back then...couple follow-ups though:

It is not all THAT different in some ways...corps still rehearse as hard as they can to clean their shows, and the designers do their best to create interesting and exciting shows for the fans and members.

The judging concepts of rank and rate are still the norm...a judge is supposed to rank the corps with each number in the order of finish and rate the corps (the spread) in those captions. No different than back in the day.

Of course, the mechanics are quite different, esp in performance as compared to the old execution captions.

Execution...the tick system...was just as subjective as the performance captions of today. The judge had to make a subjective decision as to whether or not an event was clean or warranted an error...a tick...or at a later time...did it warrant a 'group tick' that may have reached 5 or 6 tenths, if it was that bad. Consider ticks to be the 'death of a 1000 cuts', so to speak; it was still subjective.

Were the criteria and expectations of the corps similar in DCI to the other organizations like the AL and VFW? Did they need different things depending on the show sponsors, or was it all pretty similar?

There were differences in the various systems pre-DCI. In 1971, the World Open allocated 30 points for GE, while VFW Nats had a generic single 10 point GE caption. VFW's had a 10-point caption called 'Cadence'. The timing/penalty judge would take a reading of each corps tempo at (I think) three times in a show, and if it was outside a narrow allowable range (something like 126-132 BPM) the corps was assessed some number of tenths, depending on the problem.

VFW also had an inspection caption of 10 points...a corps lined up before they went on and a judge walked down the line with the DM, assessing tenths for scuffed shoes, poorly tied shoes, marks on unis, etc...the DM could try and explain away something the judge saw as 'wear and tear' to try and avoid the assessment.

Considering the ticks, were there different levels of penalties, or all one tenth?

Later in the 70's, as I noted above, a judge could assign a 'group error' if a section was so bad to try and assign individual ticks was just not possible...or desirous.

I judged the 'Class B' level of corps in the Garden State Circuit...it would have been very easy to zero out a lot of the lower performing corps without a group error...and the application of the concept of 'tolerance'. For a while in the mid/late 70's, the Garden State Circuit instructors and directors tried to implement the idea of 'National Linear' for the judges...in other words...the raw beginner corps was to be judged to the same standards of performance as, say, the Blue Devils or Muchachos or 27th or...any other top national corps. The idea behind this was that if GSC Corps X went to the World Open prelims they should be receiving the same sort of score they did at a weekly GSC local show.

Well...after seeing a lot of VERY low scores at the start of the season, the corps admins decided to quietly abandon that concept, and scores went back to where they were in prior years.

Like was a flag that was not spun in time the same as a dropped rifle (which I heard had to be then given to you by a judge)?

I think (old memory) that a piece of dropped equipment was a tenth deduction...picking it up was a point!!!

Did drill have to be symmetric? Or was that mainly because of tradition/the norm?

Drills tended to be mirror images on the mid-field line, but it was not mandatory. But...here were lots of asymmetric parts to a show...corps started on one endzone and exited out the other, for instance. My corps...the Cadets...did a Revolutionary War show in 71, and the battle scene was very asymmetric in design.

I'm sorry if this feels like a Spanish Inquisition, I'm just genuinely curious. You guys are a great help!

Don't be sorry...wanting to learn is never a bad thing!

[rudidrummer73]

Good for you with the questions. The way DCI was presented to us at its beginning was as a national organization that would standardize rules, judging and the criteria used to judge. Plus, hold their own national championship. The associated concept of touring was somewhat appealing because corps often would put together a 10 to 14 day swing into the region of the country where the legions were holding their national championship. The northeast benefited from the CYO Nationals and World Open being held in the Boston area. Of course there was a block of top level corps in New England, New Jersey, New York and Ontario, so even regional competition was of the best quality. That’s what we mostly had, regional competition.

There were regional circuits and they sometimes had their own rules governing competition and judging. That could create problems and made the standardization promised by DCI appealing.

Inspections were not too common, usually only at championship shows on a state or national level. But, one thing that the military organizations did stress and it cost many a corps positions and prize money; the previously mentioned timing and flag presentation. Not only was the show timed, (starting gun signaling the start of judging and final gun to put the pencils down) but you had to be in motion for a certain amount of time and there were certain consideration given for the placement and movement of the American flag. If you go back to other topics in this forum you will find horror stories of penalties for flag violations…unheard of today. You don’t see the American flag on the field of competition anymore.

With all due respect to our friend from New Jersey, the tick system wasn’t as subjective as presented. It was a little more cut and dried. An undressed line was an undressed line and that was a tenth. A horn line that didn’t end a note at the same time was a horn line that wasn’t clean and that was a tenth. A drum roll that didn’t start at the same time was a tenth. A judge might not be in position to see or hear a mistake, but that was a creature of fate…as it remains today.

Up until the late 60s drills were mostly military lines and angles, left to right from start to finish lines. In the early 70s, rule changes opened up the field. You could start from the upper left corner of the field and enter from the backside. Then you could go all across the backside to enter the field. Drill designers had new tools to use and they used them well. The best practitioners of drill innovation in that era were the Troopers.

[MikeD]

With all due respect to our friend from New Jersey, the tick system wasn’t as subjective as presented. It was a little more cut and dried. An undressed line was an undressed line and that was a tenth. A horn line that didn’t end a note at the same time was a horn line that wasn’t clean and that was a tenth. A drum roll that didn’t start at the same time was a tenth. A judge might not be in position to see or hear a mistake, but that was a creature of fate…as it remains today.

Was that line "undressed"? Was that release good or bad? How about that attack? Was the roll fuzzy? Release late? Tap not together?

Every decision a judge had to make was subjective in nature. On top if that, they added group ticks and of course the concept of tolerance. Was that phrase so bad it warranted 3 tenths? 4? 2? Or was it clean enough based on the tolerance for the circuit?

[JimF-LowBari]

Was that line "undressed"? Was that release good or bad? How about that attack? Was the roll fuzzy? Release late? Tap not together?

Every decision a judge had to make was subjective in nature. On top if that, they added group ticks and of course the concept of tolerance. Was that phrase so bad it warranted 3 tenths? 4? 2? Or was it clean enough based on the tolerance for the circuit?

To add to the History lesson I marched in two Senior (now All Age) circuits in the 70s. DCA was more strict on what was a mistake (aka tic) and RCA (Red Carpet Assoc) was for the corps "not quite ready for DCA" so more forgiving on mistakes. The rule book definition for what was a mistake (aka tic'able) was about the same but the level of what was bad enough to be tic'ed was different. IOW - march exactly the same in both circuits and the RCA execution score would be higher. LOL - one quote I remember from 30+ years ago is "It's a DCA show this weekend... execute #### it!!".

When you watch the 70s shows on FN. The guys with the clipboards are doing the exection (tic part). Once in a while you'll see someone marking "that mark".

Hey when you done understanding the 70s system, maybe you can explain todays system to me...

Edited July 9, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[Roark1]

Who remembers the phrase "zero-ed out"?

[MikeD]

Who remembers the phrase "zero-ed out"?

I have actually used it on DCP...I did zero-out a Garden State Circuit corps once on drumming execution...I felt bad then, and obviously it stayed with me. For me personally, I considered it to be a bad job on my part to zero-out any corps.