DCI-86 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The top corps are now around the 82/83 mark which is also pretty much the score the 12th place corps at DCI finals scores. So I was thinking does that mean that the Carolina Crown of July 9th would place 12th at DCI finals? I highly doubt it- yet shouldn't an 82 mean an 82 no matter what time of the season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 In theory an 82, or whatever the score, should mean just that at any time. However, just use the best judge out their (your eyes and ears). This will provide the best litmus test. The corps scoring an 82 at this point are vastly superior, even in their present state, vs. corps that will end their season hitting an 82, 85, 88. On a math test an 82 is a B, maybe B-, no matter how many times it's given. With the build-up system in drum corps the idea is two-fold: 1) to rank the corps (top-down since it is a competition), and 2) to rate the captions (to assess each caption based on 5 boxes of difficulty and artistry and how each corps' performance [in that caption] relates to the highest possible score). The combination of No. 2 helps us reach No. 1, but it also makes sure the spreads between each corps are correct (at least according to the judges). Each corps is essentially being judged by how far away they are from perfection. We call it build-up, but in a sense this is what is happening. Each caption has a ceiling (top possible score), and each perfomance allows a judge to say "your 70% of the way there." If the caption was worth 20 points, then 70% of that is 14. In math class your work is judged by your teacher, but it's cut and dry...you either got the answer right or you didn't. Maybe you get some points for doing most of the equation right or for the process. In music and the visual arts it's completely different, especially when competition is at the center of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCI-86 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 I understand that the judge's first responsibility is to rank the corps but the box system they use should reflect what they see, whether that be in July or august. Just seems strange to me how it works. In WGI i think they are much more pure to the boxes which means that groups can come out the gate and score in the high 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think the boxes are good and the caption scores are generally very accurate in DCI. I do think it's possible for a corps to come out and score an 85, but we typically would not see that with such a large-scale product (use of entire football field, not indoor gym). If the corps were just doing stand-stills, I believe you would see some high scores out of the gates because music (brass and drums) will always be solid. This is what they spend most of their time on during the fall/winter camps. When the performers are standing still they can really showcase their talents. Most DCI guards do not get finalized until winter or spring (after WGI) so it takes time to get them integrated into the show. The visual program is generally taught at spring training. So visually the corps, come mid-June, will not look so stellar...even the top-level corps. When you look at the sheets and see that General Effect music has a visual component and that GE Visual has a music component, then you realize that scores will suffer until the visual improves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 the criteria on the sheets in the boxes do not change. there is no sliding scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowtron Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You're right, an 82 today in reality is not an 82 in August. But I question the reliance many have on raw numbers. As long as the right corps is up by the right amount, I couldn't care less if the winner is at 99, 25, 173, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It's impossible under the current system to use objective scoring. The judges can only grade each subcaption in tenths of points. So for example in the Music Effect content subcaption, if they want just *rank* the corps without any ties, they could give twelfth place no more than an 8.9. But they have to turn in the scores immediately after judging, so how could they know that the first corps to go on should get the 8.9? And yet, it's risky to give them a higher score than that because if they *are* only the 12th best corps in that subcaption and you gave them a 9.2, then how are you going to fit the other 11 corps in above them? So corps 12 came on and you gave them an 8.9 to leave room. Well, corps 11 comes on and does much better. Do you give them a 9.3, or a 9.0? A 9.3 would let you rank corps 10 and corps 9 below corps 11, but what if they are *better* than corps 11? So as for your question, doesn't "82" *mean* something? Well, what's more important? Being able to compare the corps' performances, or just giving them an objective score? I think ranking is more important, and given the score resolution judges can give I think the bottom two or three corps in finals will always end up in the low to mid 80s, regardless of how good they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowtron Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It's impossible under the current system to use objective scoring. The judges can only grade each subcaption in tenths of points. So for example in the Music Effect content subcaption, if they want just *rank* the corps without any ties, they could give twelfth place no more than an 8.9. But they have to turn in the scores immediately after judging, so how could they know that the first corps to go on should get the 8.9? And yet, it's risky to give them a higher score than that because if they *are* only the 12th best corps in that subcaption and you gave them a 9.2, then how are you going to fit the other 11 corps in above them? So corps 12 came on and you gave them an 8.9 to leave room. Well, corps 11 comes on and does much better. Do you give them a 9.3, or a 9.0? A 9.3 would let you rank corps 10 and corps 9 below corps 11, but what if they are *better* than corps 11? So as for your question, doesn't "82" *mean* something? Well, what's more important? Being able to compare the corps' performances, or just giving them an objective score? I think ranking is more important, and given the score resolution judges can give I think the bottom two or three corps in finals will always end up in the low to mid 80s, regardless of how good they are. EXCELLENT post. We see this happen too often. BD gets a 95, Cavaliers get a 96, what if Cadets are in between? Pre judging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 What is the definition of an 82 today and an 82 in august Today A corps who receives an 82 usually has a well designed show which challenges it's members, works visually and musically but is not being performed at a box 5 level. In addition some of the show may not work completely as changes and new endings have not been put into place. Finals Night A corps who recieves an 82 is usually performing their show at the best of their ability but the design and effectiveness is not at a top tier level. So primarily the difference is that an 82 now is a good show performed dirty, and an 82 later is a mediocre to moderate show performed well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecoats88 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 EXCELLENT post. We see this happen too often. BD gets a 95, Cavaliers get a 96, what if Cadets are in between? Pre judging. that's why I'm all for the 2 decimal availability in sub captions. if in this instance BD gwts a 9.5, then Cavies go on and are better and the judge gives them a 9.6 with Cadets still to perform. If Cadets come in and are better than BD but not quite as good as Cavies I say let the judge slip them in at 9.55. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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