Cavaliers and Madison Scouts

[bobjective]

Totally agree!! Please close it now!!

[proudTXmom]

Any privately funded group can make their requirements for membership and determine if people fit those requirements for membership. It was uphelp in the Supreme Court. This is how the Cavies and Scouts can be all male, sororities can be all female and Sun City can allow only old foggies to live there.

[Tim Coffey]

Well, they are private organization who are privately funded. The second that they accept public, state, or federal funding, they would have no choice but to change. But until that happens, they can do whatever they want. They choose to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by not accepting female members.

Works for me.

With multiple VFW, AL, and DCI titles between them, the case for them having being at a competitive disadvantage is weak at best. The truth is that purposely excluding males would lead to a competitive disadvantage.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Tim Coffey

[Zeke]

[skywhopper]

I dislike these threads, not because I think the topic should be off limits, but because most of the arguments make no sense. Without making a case one way or the other, let me address a couple of arguments that have been stated repeatedly here.

First, claiming "tradition" is a poor argument in favor of the legitimacy of a practice. There are plenty of "traditions" from the past (or from other cultures) that we all would rightly disapprove of today. (Note: I'm not making a judgment here about exclusion of women from a particular drum corps, just noting that there do exist practices once called "traditions" that we would shun today.)

Second, the technical legality of a practice is also not an argument in favor of the rightness or soundness of a practice. There are plenty of things that are legal to do, but that are unsavory, immoral, or unethical. (Note: again, I'm not claiming here that excluding women is any of the above negative adjectives, just making the claim that notional practices exist that we would condemn as immoral, and yet would be found to be legal in a court of law.)

Perhaps tradition and legality is enough. As pointed out, there are other options for women interested in drum corps, just fewer options than for men. If that's appealing as an argument, I would submit then that Cavies and Madison do benefit somewhat in terms of acceptance of exclusion in that they represent less than 10% of the World Class corps. There are 21 other world class corps who do accept women. But if we had more male-only corps, is there a ratio at which their exclusion of women *does* become unfair? If half of all corps excluded women, would that be acceptable? 90%? All but one? What about if the Cadets and Blue Devils were also male-only? Would the fact that the vast majority of DCI championships had gone to male-only corps make the practice unacceptable, even if the other corps all accepted women?

Finally, I'm curious: does anyone have an argument that doesn't appeal to tradition or legality in favor of exclusion of women from these two corps?

And as a postscript, if any of the above sounds angry or antagonistic, I apologize. I'm wishy washy on this issue myself, and I'm genuinely curious about what other people think.

[NR_Ohiobando]

Well, they are private organization who are privately funded. The second that they accept public, state, or federal funding, they would have no choice but to change. But until that happens, they can do whatever they want. They choose to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by not accepting female members.

Works for me.

Yes, because we all know how absolutely terrible both corps have placed during DCI's short history.

[BozzlyB]

Totally agree!! Please close it now!!

Or, just stop visiting the thread. Free will my friend, participation is not required.

[mobrien]

By putting an additional restriction on membership, the Madison Scouts and Cavaliers are making it tougher to field a competitive corps ...

I think if you look at Cavaliers actual record over the last 60 years, you'll find that this theory hasn't played out. They absolutely dominated drum corps from the late 50s through the 60s, and have been one of the most consistently competitive organizations in any sport from the mid-80s through the current era.

The period when Cavaliers were least successful on the field (70s through early 80s), they suffered because of poor program design relative to the field. However, at that same time, Madison was a powerhouse, so there's always been a healthy representation of all-male corps at the top of the activity.

Edited July 23, 2012 by mobrien

[Kamarag]

With multiple VFW, AL, and DCI titles between them, the case for them having being at a competitive disadvantage is weak at best. The truth is that purposely excluding males would lead to a competitive disadvantage.

It's a strong argument. The fact that Cavaliers and Scout overcame that disadvantage is commendable. But to be honest, the VFW and AL championships are less germane to the discussion, as it was a totally different era, one where there were many more all-male corps.

What they are doing now, in this current era, puts them at a competitive disadvantage. It's just one they have been able to overcome most of the time, which is really impressive in and of itself.

You guys seem to think I'm bagging on Cavies and Scouts. I'm not, at all. It's no different than BYU or Stanford or Notre Dame Football...they have additional restrictions on the pool of recruits, and most of the time, they overcome those self-imposed restrictions.

If anything, Cavaliers and Scouts are even more impressive.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Kamarag

[NR_Ohiobando]

I dislike these threads, not because I think the topic should be off limits, but because most of the arguments make no sense. Without making a case one way or the other, let me address a couple of arguments that have been stated repeatedly here.

First, claiming "tradition" is a poor argument in favor of the legitimacy of a practice. There are plenty of "traditions" from the past (or from other cultures) that we all would rightly disapprove of today. (Note: I'm not making a judgment here about exclusion of women from a particular drum corps, just noting that there do exist practices once called "traditions" that we would shun today.)

Second, the technical legality of a practice is also not an argument in favor of the rightness or soundness of a practice. There are plenty of things that are legal to do, but that are unsavory, immoral, or unethical. (Note: again, I'm not claiming here that excluding women is any of the above negative adjectives, just making the claim that notional practices exist that we would condemn as immoral, and yet would be found to be legal in a court of law.)

Perhaps tradition and legality is enough. As pointed out, there are other options for women interested in drum corps, just fewer options than for men. If that's appealing as an argument, I would submit then that Cavies and Madison do benefit somewhat in terms of acceptance of exclusion in that they represent less than 10% of the World Class corps. There are 21 other world class corps who do accept women. But if we had more male-only corps, is there a ratio at which their exclusion of women *does* become unfair? If half of all corps excluded women, would that be acceptable? 90%? All but one? What about if the Cadets and Blue Devils were also male-only? Would the fact that the vast majority of DCI championships had gone to male-only corps make the practice unacceptable, even if the other corps all accepted women?

Finally, I'm curious: does anyone have an argument that doesn't appeal to tradition or legality in favor of exclusion of women from these two corps?

And as a postscript, if any of the above sounds angry or antagonistic, I apologize. I'm wishy washy on this issue myself, and I'm genuinely curious about what other people think.

Aesthetically/perception-wise it's a whole different experience for the audience. Not necessarily better, but in comparison to every other corps in DCI they do offer something completely different. It's the same reason Phantom Regiment likes going with the all-female guard. Madison and Cavaliers are able to present things that no one else can due to their choices. Likewise, Phantom Regiment is doing the same, and I support their decisions.

You argue that these corps are "excluding women". I would argue that forcing Madison and Cavaliers to include women would be akin "exclusion of a particular design choice that is perfectly legal". Besides, Madison has actually included 2 guest female members in their history (recently as 2005).

I wouldn't say we "need" more male corps. As you point out, the act of inclusion simply to make things equal is still exclusion of others. Think Affirmative Action. Does some good, but still is technically unfair to some people. If 90% of the corps in DCI were all male, that's their design decision. I suspect starting up a very successful all-female corps would become much more realistic if this were to happen, so honestly I'd expect someone to try that and be successful. The corps in DCI aren't really static, they are constantly changing. All-female guards used to be the norm. Now Phantom Regiment is the only one brave enough to pursue this as a design choice, and it's working out incredibly well for them.

And besides, I'm sure somewhere along the line people have been excluded from even certain theatrical parts just based on the way they look. Can you imagine how many Caucasian people get excluded from Porgy and Bess productions just because of the color of their skin? That darn Gershwin is such a racist, right?

You argue that their practice is not "morally right". Which is weird, because no matter how hard I try, I'm never going to be able to compete in women's soccer because I have a male body. I REALLY REALLY want to play women's soccer, but I'll never be able to unless I undergo some sort of surgery. They're excluding me based on gender traditions and legality. Does that seem right to you?

Edit: I think I just channeled Jubal Early there for a second haha

Edited July 23, 2012 by NR_Ohiobando