Michael Boo Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Lots of questions and lots of opinions but let's be honest, not one answer. I say that because they only folk who can answer this are DCI and they're keeping very quiet on what the future holds with regards to Drum Corps & sync rights. I don't speak for DCI, and indeed, I don't know what those in a position of authority think about this. However, I suspect that if they are being quiet on what the future holds regarding sync rights, it's because no one truly knows what to expect. Moving back ten years, I don't think we could have expected some of the scenarios we have to deal with today. It seems like the rules are in a state of flux, ever changing to accommodate new developments in media. I'm not typically one for making predictions, but I wouldn't be shocked if this is something that only gets increasingly more challenging with time. But I also expect DCI will do all it can to stay on top what appears to be an issue that is not going to go away. I'm also relieved that's not one of my responsibilities. Not to pass the buck...but that can't be an enviable position to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Know I keep coming back to this but just thought of the parents of members who don't have a complete copy of their show for the past season. Especially considering the amount of $$$$ members pay out to join the corps. I can just picture the anger on that one if it happened in my family.... And I'm not talking about being upset that they can't show off the DVD to Auntie Em and her tribe. Thinking "other corps did it and yours didn't... for that cost... <deleting the next 20 minutes..> if you march again , you know where it WON'T be". Edited November 9, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Ummm... Did you notice my PS? Of course I do. I've said as much. I am pointing to the big picture -the copyright/expression forest, not the tangled mess of law/lawyer trees. And your fundamental argument is that the current laws and interpretation of copy right laws are stupid. I know of very few people who would argue with that. However, your argument is meaningless out side of philosophical debate. DCI would be in the wrong if they willfully violate copyright laws, as you are seemingly advocating. Their probability of getting caught is likely closer to "not getting caught" than "getting caught," but they are a) still willfully violating copyright law (a bad business practice fundamentally, compounded if your business is an entertainment provider often playing other people's music) b) still risking getting caught, and the costs of fighting that violation and/or paying the fines are not worth it. Which, again, bring me back around to my suggestion. DCI is not going to change the business practices of huge media, nor will they be able to magically convince rights holders the error of their ways, nor will they have the deep pockets to fight a rights violation case to the SCOTUS, which is what they'd need to do to change business practices and law interpretation. So in light of that obvious assessment, the only other option is for DCI to have more oversight on what they allow corps to perform. If they are more vigilant, and send the message to corps that it's important that designers at least take this stuff into consideration, things might change. If DCI implements some sort of new policy with consequences for willfully programming elements that DCI will be unable to get rights to (DCI could even charge corps extra for the extra effort of trying to get the rights), perhaps even fewer corps will test those waters. There will always be some, and if it's an element that is worth the fine, a corps can make that suggestion: I would guess many corps wouldn't want to take that chance, if there was a fine and/or any loss of revenue. Regardless, I think DCI is not in the best position to continue to make decisions that potentially cost them revenue, and I think they do need to take action on this matter sooner than later. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Yeah, it's pretty complex and yet murky. I suspect it's mostly about royalties. All the other licenses are cheap and simple because there are no royalties possible, no 'back end money'. But once video is involved there could potentially be big money (tv show, or music video), so they want to negotiate all the details of the use to see if there might be some royalty money potential. Which there is in the case of DCI, though small. This is a great point: one that I think glory and others might be overlooking. When it comes to entertainment contracts, it is ALL about past deals. What was 'won' by the artist previously? What has the studio/corporation conceded in the past in similar situations? What might seem like an insignificant concession to DCI could potentially cost a rights holder significantly further down the line in a completely unrelated situation we don't know about. While glory might have law experience, I have experience on the other end of entertainment law, and I can attest to the fact that it is extremely rare for a large corporation (record labels, rights holders, movie studios, etc) to give an inch, so to speak: especially if they perceive someone else 'stealing' a mile from them in the future. Maybe if there were a way to convince all the rights holders that as far as non-profit performing arts education organizations goes, there isn't enough royalty potential to make it worth dragging it out, the process could be streamlined. I don't know if there's a way all these activities (MB, DC, CG, drill teams, etc.) could make a deal en masse with all the rights holders. There's no interest group representing all of our activities to conduct the negotiations. Unless we were to, say, create one... That's an interesting thought. All of these organizations (MB, DC, WGI, etc) seem to go through CopyCat for all of their copyright clearance needs, so there is likely something already close to a relationship/standard when it comes to rights stuff (obviously sync rights are new and still not ironed down). What kind of sucks is that many wind ensemble literature composers don't like "amateurs" arranging their music and potentially bastardizing it, and thus will charge a lot for the trouble. And many pop artists are either a) represented by so many different management types they don't care who wants the rights they're charging out the nose, or b) already have publishing deals that include stock arrangements in case bands are interested in their pop hits. When art mixes with commerce complications will arise. I don't begrudge artists to make money (even when that means they sell the rights to their art to corporations, the artists are still making money off of their product); it would be nice if more artists/rights holders were more laid back when it comes to schools and non-profits. But that's a weird line, and once an artist opens that door for leniency, others will exploit it. It's a tough world we live in. Is it better to fight this stuff, and butt heads with the copy right industry? Or is it easier to do what we can, and try to avoid doing work that's hard to get rights to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 any circuit and video company with a brain is getting clearances and licensing proof It's weird, as the sync rights are on whomever is producing/selling the video. In the local winter percussion circuit I work with, the circuit crosses their P's and Q's when it comes to arrangement and performance rights. But they don't bother with the sync rights, as an independent company produces/sells/profits from DVDs. Obviously, DCI sells the products, so it is their problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Know I keep coming back to this but just thought of the parents of members who don't have a complete copy of their show for the past season. Especially considering the amount of $$$$ members pay out to join the corps. I can just picture the anger on that one if it happened in my family.... And I'm not talking about being upset that they can't show off the DVD to Auntie Em and her tribe. Thinking "other corps did it and yours didn't... for that cost... <deleting the next 20 minutes..> if you march again , you know where it WON'T be". That's definitely a bummer. I know my WGI age-out performance (from 1999) will never be available on DVD or anything because all of the copyright violations. No one really cared too much back then so it didn't matter to WGI when we performed it at the time. Now there are so many violations it's not even a matter of editing a song, or two, or several minutes: I'm pretty sure almost all of the program is in violation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I don't speak for DCI, and indeed, I don't know what those in a position of authority think about this. However, I suspect that if they are being quiet on what the future holds regarding sync rights, it's because no one truly knows what to expect. Moving back ten years, I don't think we could have expected some of the scenarios we have to deal with today. It seems like the rules are in a state of flux, ever changing to accommodate new developments in media. Such as using samples of prerecorded material being illegal even a decade ago. Forget copyright law trend changes, even DCI rules changes from one decade to the next are nearly impossible to predict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Matczak Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 This is a great point: one that I think glory and others might be overlooking. When it comes to entertainment contracts, it is ALL about past deals. What was 'won' by the artist previously? What has the studio/corporation conceded in the past in similar situations? What might seem like an insignificant concession to DCI could potentially cost a rights holder significantly further down the line in a completely unrelated situation we don't know about. While glory might have law experience, I have experience on the other end of entertainment law, and I can attest to the fact that it is extremely rare for a large corporation (record labels, rights holders, movie studios, etc) to give an inch, so to speak: especially if they perceive someone else 'stealing' a mile from them in the future. That's an interesting thought. All of these organizations (MB, DC, WGI, etc) seem to go through CopyCat for all of their copyright clearance needs, so there is likely something already close to a relationship/standard when it comes to rights stuff (obviously sync rights are new and still not ironed down). What kind of sucks is that many wind ensemble literature composers don't like "amateurs" arranging their music and potentially bastardizing it, and thus will charge a lot for the trouble. And many pop artists are either a) represented by so many different management types they don't care who wants the rights they're charging out the nose, or b) already have publishing deals that include stock arrangements in case bands are interested in their pop hits. When art mixes with commerce complications will arise. I don't begrudge artists to make money (even when that means they sell the rights to their art to corporations, the artists are still making money off of their product); it would be nice if more artists/rights holders were more laid back when it comes to schools and non-profits. But that's a weird line, and once an artist opens that door for leniency, others will exploit it. It's a tough world we live in. Is it better to fight this stuff, and butt heads with the copy right industry? Or is it easier to do what we can, and try to avoid doing work that's hard to get rights to. All very good points,..........well said. The interesting item that circulated around our group was: while it may cost us say $400.00 for specific tune,.........who is really making any money..........you have all sorts of costs (time, overhead, etc) involved in terms of the actual hand work to getting a quote, preparing the agreement, getting it out, getting it back with the payment, more processing, etc. etc. what is the artist really making?,........63 bucks? To me, design teams should be charged with vetting the proposed program through the entire process of obtaining rights to arrange, perform, sync, etc. a lot sooner,.........like,..........now! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) That's definitely a bummer. I know my WGI age-out performance (from 1999) will never be available on DVD or anything because all of the copyright violations. No one really cared too much back then so it didn't matter to WGI when we performed it at the time. Now there are so many violations it's not even a matter of editing a song, or two, or several minutes: I'm pretty sure almost all of the program is in violation Always in the back of my mind as it took over 30 years for a vid from my first season to surface (thank you Jim Jones). Sad part is the drill wan't complete so we marched half a show and played part of the rest of the book. Surprise to me as I forgot we didn't play the whole show. So 38 seasons later still don't have a recording of all our music for that year. Have an audio recording from the following year only because a friend of a corps member was checking out his reel-to-reel and recorded our home show. No WAY that would be allowed today..... Edited November 9, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) . Edited November 9, 2012 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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