Oberservation

[Plan9]

Reading your reply makes me wonder if you are confirming, at least by your observation, what concerns many (some? a few?) about the "influence" that BD peddles. And that is that a show that's not "avante gard" in the BD recent tradition CAN'T win no matter how well written or executed it may be.

I think you've unknowingly connected the dots to the other thread asking about Crown's percussion, but that I strongly feel is apparent: Thom Hannum's percussion book is written perfectly for the show Crown is doing but, because his writing style is not "avante gard" in the BD recent tradition, it can't win.

To me, and I suspect many (some? a few?) others here will agree with me, that's just wrong.

I agree it's perhaps unfair to weaken your judgement of a design component simply because it's functioning correctly within that design. But these judges are viewing a number of lines and seeing them in terms of difficulty and execution. So....if a drum line is marching blind backwards through a sort of fragile maze of props (that could easily be collided with) and which add dramatically to the danger and beauty of the visual moment......how does a judge reconcile that with a drum line march blind backwards on a completely open field, with a relatively same quality of book. And the corps with the props does it night after night on the edge of a train wreck and cruising through clean........it matters G. And I don't know how they parse it out.

Finally, I don't think BD is peddling anything! They're putting on the field what they feel works with the music. They are on a tear at the moment with their designs....anyone who doesn't admit that isn't paying attention or is just mad at their dominance. You can argue about chairs and mirrors, and dissonance, blah, blah....but they are putting mad #### on the field consistently since 2007. that's ridiculously difficult. Look at the amazing use of half circles this year as antelope horns....and then spin them....brilliant!... it's visual genius. So what do they do when they sit around conjuring up these themes and start bouncing these ideas off each other...should they say..."We can't use that idea, it's too...................................." :blink:/> No.....they trot it out, and thank God someone is.....I have nearly had my company front quota.

[drilltech1]

Plan9,

I agree with you that BD has been off on its own planet apart from the solar system the rest of drum corps follows.

While both Crown, and to a smaller degree Cadets and Bluecoats, have been influenced by that direction, drum corps design has not changed as a result of BD winning except for two factors:

one) full melodies and pieces are not played anymore but snippets. And two) more and more corps are following the Todd Ryan (Star/BD) tactic of having everyone move except the element actually playing the music at that time.

Cadets and Crown (and Blue Stars)) have followed the BD model for propitis, the overuse of props to center a show design. Crown with EIB has imitated BD but has chosen music more accessible to the crowd at large (the MGM melody of BD '12 is an pleasent exception.) Their hornline wins fans of all musical backgrounds. BD does not, it seems, except for the musically esoteric. I am not of that camp.

[Plan9]

Personally I really like both shows this year. There are other shows I like better, but I really do like them both. As far as the competitive side, there are a lot of people who really want to see Crown win the championship. And not to knock the people who want Crown to win, but sometimes people who really want a corps to win, find many reasons to knock a corps who stands in their way. People who are wanting Crown to win, might look for any type of flaw to point out in Blue Devils show. And the same goes for people who really want BD to win, they might be looking for any flaws in Crowns show that would put BD on top.

I think another thing to put it into perspective. Last year, BD won with a show many found to be odd. Many people were upset with the direction BD took. Many people were wanting Crown to win last year. So there was much said about BD that could almost be construed as hatred towards the show. But here is a question. If BD came in 3rd last year, with the exact same show and performance, would as many people have hated it? It seems that the dislike of the show sometimes made people question its placement. I think if BD had placed 3rd instead of 1st, many people would be saying it was an odd, but kind of cool show. Instead we heard, that is kind of a weird show, how in the heck did it win? You can love 2 shows, on 2 different levels. Very seldom are you going to watch 2 corps(any 2 corps) and like both shows exactly the same. Usually there is something about 1 that you will prefer over the other, and there is nothing wrong with that. But sometimes corps people take things to the extreme. Because I may love Crown, and want them to win, I might be looking for more reasons to root against Blue Devils.

I think another thing is hardly anyone would like to see BD win another title. So a lot of people will find any criticism they can. And as for negatives regarding Crown this year, I hear people complain because they feel that Crown has taken the negative sides of Blue Devils, along with the dreadful narration that is as bad as Cadets 2 shows a few years back, and combined those to make a show that is once again near championship level.

Bless you! :worthy:/> It's just that simple...............and just that complex!

Now, go tell that to Jeff Ream....he sure as hell doesn't believe me! :tongue:/>

[drilltech1]

Personally I really like both shows this year. There are other shows I like better, but I really do like them both. As far as the competitive side, there are a lot of people who really want to see Crown win the championship. And not to knock the people who want Crown to win, but sometimes people who really want a corps to win, find many reasons to knock a corps who stands in their way. People who are wanting Crown to win, might look for any type of flaw to point out in Blue Devils show. And the same goes for people who really want BD to win, they might be looking for any flaws in Crowns show that would put BD on top.

I think another thing to put it into perspective. Last year, BD won with a show many found to be odd. Many people were upset with the direction BD took. Many people were wanting Crown to win last year. So there was much said about BD that could almost be construed as hatred towards the show. But here is a question. If BD came in 3rd last year, with the exact same show and performance, would as many people have hated it? It seems that the dislike of the show sometimes made people question its placement. I think if BD had placed 3rd instead of 1st, many people would be saying it was an odd, but kind of cool show. Instead we heard, that is kind of a weird show, how in the heck did it win? You can love 2 shows, on 2 different levels. Very seldom are you going to watch 2 corps(any 2 corps) and like both shows exactly the same. Usually there is something about 1 that you will prefer over the other, and there is nothing wrong with that. But sometimes corps people take things to the extreme. Because I may love Crown, and want them to win, I might be looking for more reasons to root against Blue Devils.

I think another thing is hardly anyone would like to see BD win another title. So a lot of people will find any criticism they can. And as for negatives regarding Crown this year, I hear people complain because they feel that Crown has taken the negative sides of Blue Devils, along with the dreadful narration that is as bad as Cadets 2 shows a few years back, and combined those to make a show that is once again near championship level.

You have said this well and I find myself agreeing with you.

[garfield]

I agree it's perhaps unfair to weaken your judgement of a design component simply because it's functioning correctly within that design. But these judges are viewing a number of lines and seeing them in terms of difficulty and execution. So....if a drum line is marching blind backwards through a sort of fragile maze of props (that could easily be collided with) and which add dramatically to the danger and beauty of the visual moment......how does a judge reconcile that with a drum line march blind backwards on a completely open field, with a relatively same quality of book. And the corps with the props does it night after night on the edge of a train wreck and cruising through clean........it matters G. And I don't know how they parse it out.

Finally, I don't think BD is peddling anything! They're putting on the field what they feel works with the music. They are on a tear at the moment with their designs....anyone who doesn't admit that isn't paying attention or is just mad at their dominance. You can argue about chairs and mirrors, and dissonance, blah, blah....but they are putting mad #### on the field consistently since 2007. that's ridiculously difficult. Look at the amazing use of half circles this year as antelope horns....and then spin them....brilliant!... it's visual genius. So what do they do when they sit around conjuring up these themes and start bouncing these ideas off each other...should they say..."We can't use that idea, it's too...................................." /> No.....they trot it out, and thank God someone is.....I have nearly had my company front quota.

A dot is a dot, Plan. And a marching member told to reach a dot and not hit a prop works out a trajectory to do that. Then repeat and let muscle memory take over. In your example I'd be hard-pressed to reward a line just because they followed a path that didn't cause a wreck.

That said, a wrongly placed prop that causes a snare to fall doesn't count against the drummer but it might cost the guard who placed the prop there.

And, come on, half-circles used as both antelope horns and as a spinning prop? THAT gets extra points? THAT'S avante gard? That explains the horse figures used as coat racks, I suppose. But visual genius? Umm...

And, yes, "peddling" was a wrong term. "Influence" is better. But my point stands: apparently, if it's not avante gard, it can't win. No matter the execution.

I hate that that is the case, but Crown's drum book convinces me that you're correct regardless of my disdain.

Edited July 25, 2013 by garfield

[garfield]

Bless you! /> It's just that simple...............and just that complex!

Now, go tell that to Jeff Ream....he sure as hell doesn't believe me! />

Couldn't you just have highlighted this sentence:

"I think another thing is hardly anyone would like to see BD win another title. So a lot of people will find any criticism they can."

and written your same response?

Why are people who don't like a BD show constantly accused of trying to find or create reasons to not like them?

I don't have to find reasons to not like a show. The corps gives me the reasons.

Not every fan who dislikes a BD show suffers from ABBD syndrome, yet most are accused of that malady.

Edited July 25, 2013 by garfield

[Plan9]

Couldn't you just have highlighted this sentence:

"I think another thing is hardly anyone would like to see BD win another title. So a lot of people will find any criticism they can."

and written your same response?

Why are people who don't like a BD show constantly accused of trying to find or create reasons to not like them?

I don't have to find reasons to not like a show. The corps gives me the reasons.

Not every fan who dislikes a BD show suffers from ABBD syndrome, yet most are accused of that malady.

There are LOTS of reasons to dislike any show....including one by BD. Many on here, like Jeff, are pretty good about defining why and he (and others) are not in the ABBD crowd......but the crowd exists!

So.....no, it's not a requirement to like BD, you like em' or you don't.....to me, it's a shame if it's simply because they are tired of seeing their uniform standing behind the DCI trophy. This ain't T-Ball.

[Shempy]

I very much respect BD, which is why I get frustrated when referred to as a "hater" if I don't like their shows. For me, it's all about style. I liked the Godfather Show and the show in, what was it-- 87 when they wore the gray uniforms and played "happy days are here again"? Classy stuff. Ironically enough it seems most BD fans don't like that show. Again, a matter of taste.

I think some fear that when a corps wins with something edgy and really different that it drives the activity in a direction they don't really care for. Some may stone me for this: You HAVE to think that some of the design choices this year in several corps are influenced by the success of Cabaret Voltaire. Both Cadets and Crown seem to be mimicking this to a degree. Otherwise, explain crown's uniform to me after years of being the cream team. I know it fits the show. So would a new jacket designed specifically for it. The cadets have not used color like this since 02.

I'm just happy DCI is doing as well as it is. I keep bringing new folks to see and they enjoy it.

I don't know if I'd say specifically Cabaret Voltaire has been the key influencer. There's been a handful of shows that I think have really left an impression on the designers for some of the corps, specifically 2010 BD and Cavies among others in the past few years, as well as Cabaret. Those two in particular I think illustrate a growing trend in show design that share a few key point

• Experimentation in musical instrumentation and arrangement (arrangement is a big one here, look at BD's Laura in 2010 as an example).
• Non-traditional repertoires that work toward a mood rather than a theme
• Show themes that with some effort by the audience can be deconstructed profusely.

The third one is one that is probably the most apparently influencing other corps. A while back I explained to a friend why 2010 Cavies and BD show themes were so great. They tried to do something that corps rarely do: make the audience think. Bear in mind that this is all my own personal opinion of the shows. Through a Glass Darkly, to me, is about the impossibility of knowing anything for certain. The whole mirror motif, the background of the show title (from an epistle by Paul) that refers to a distorted truth, and even the use of film noir music (in which a consistent theme is disinformation and mystery).

Mad World may have had a bit more obvious theme, but the pieces are really cool to examine as well. My interpretation of it was a portrayal of some sort of PTSD suffered by a soldier. The whole This is My Rifle bit and the push-ups and military pageantry obviously conveys the physical side of it. The big dark impacts of the song Mad World and the Pat Metheny piece point to a darker turning point, and the almost horrifying Smile segment shows the mind's inability to handle the horrors of war, capped off with the demonic laughs and scary-### clown faces as well as the guard's methodic, lumbering movement in some moves.

[NakedEye]

I very much respect BD, which is why I get frustrated when referred to as a "hater" if I don't like their shows. For me, it's all about style. I liked the Godfather Show and You HAVE to think that some of the design choices this year in several corps are influenced by the success of Cabaret Voltaire. Both Cadets and Crown seem to be mimicking this to a degree. Otherwise, explain crown's uniform to me after years of being the cream team. I know it fits the show. So would a new jacket designed specifically for it. The cadets have not used color like this since 02.

I think the BD influence is a bit overstated. Certainly the stuff they have been building on for 5 years is permeating into others, to some extent (as is Mad World, for sure). Regarding the mentioned examples, though, not so much:

Crown has been moving toward this uniform for a while, and it had to occur at some point because their body work was becoming so extensive that it was increasingly at odds with the look of a square-shouldered jacket and military hat with plumage. It was starting to get comical, and they began moving to something softer in the "spaceman vest" previous uniforms. I'm sure Cesario really encouraged them to go in the direction they ended up with this year, and when you have had as many near-misses as they have in the recent past, there is a lot more incentive to swing for the fences and make a radical change. Letting go of their comfort "blanket" of the cream got people's attention. In the process, they actually made BD's look seem a bit dated, especially in the headgear department, where the crown pointy tube thing has to certainly be more comfortable and provide superior ventilation.

The Cadets' color stuff is similar to what they have done for a long time. Big solids and shapes. The latest West Side Story was full of it, and there are a bunch of prior examples. It was even the case last year, though they used metallics instead of matte.

[ordsw24]

I mean this in the nicest and most complimentary way, but Crown 2013 reminds of a really good BOA show, especially with all of the body work (which BOA has tended to adopt more fervently in the past 5-10 years than DCI) and especially the running dual arrangement, which many BOA shows have done. The Freebird/ Firebird show especially comes to mind, but there have been many others. Not saying DCI shows have not done this type of arrangement before, because many shows have, but it's definitely more common and more pronounced in BOA. Also, Crown percussion this year definitely seems more tamped down (much like a BOA show), and the electronics and narration, well, that just screams BOA. Again, I'm not criticizing Crown, I'm just surprised they are not getting more flack for what I've mentioned above. Based on many posts on here, I expected a much more "red meat" DCI show. It's really anything but imo.