Field Judges "in the way"

[drumcat]

I'm not so sure (how would you know?). When I've sat in a different place or watched a show on FN vs live or vice versa, I often discover just how much of the blended sound is from the synth. Particularly at the low end, it's very hard to discern. Maybe all the brass judges have exceptional hearing, but I sort of doubt it, if they've been judging and teaching brass for decades. But in any case even when you can tell, the synth often covers the brass.

http://en.wikipedia....esnel_principle

Fact is, you can't tell unless you're the focal point. I could go on for pages about this, but when it all comes down to what people feel "isn't quite right" about amps, this is a lot of it.

(edit: BTW, I've been waiting to post this for years now. Thanks for reminding me.)

Edited July 30, 2013 by drumcat

[BRASSO]

Being an on field judge would improve my quickness/foot work for sports.

With all this dodging and weaving and running that field percussion judges have to do to not get run over, I'm under no little illusion that percussion judges today can effectively judge performance lines this way. BITD it was easier on the whole to judge drumlines as they did nowhere near this high velocity movements in drill throughout the show performance.

That said, I'm no illusion either that a GE Music judge or a Musical Ensemble ( Analysis ) judge up in the box 100 yards away from the field below at Finals can effectively judge ( for example ) the closer musical performance with all these Corps when the fans in front of them are standing up and screaming and yelling, making hearing what is happening on the field way down below pretty much impossible, imo. Judges have great talents. But their hearing ability is no stronger than any other human being. Thats why this scoring biz is an almost impossible endeavor we put these good people thru as judges of these shows.

Edited July 30, 2013 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

As a former indoor percussion judge, I find it absolutely unnecessary. It's simply an old intimidation thing, and needs to be retired. I know for a fact that any of those guys could properly judge from 4 or 40 rows up. They aren't seeing anything more by being that close; in fact, they miss most of the pit most of the time. I can sit in row 1, or stand on the sideline, and get it right. Just stay away from the amps, and watch. If that means you get right up to the sideline, fine. However, this isn't the standstill-70's, and there ain't no ticks.

If WGI can do it, so can DCI. I hope they change it before someone seriously injures a kid and affects an outcome.

WGI is in an entirely different environment where honestly, pit balance is far better controlled. Looking at the sheet as it's designed, you won't be able to tell a lot of that from the stands. WGi also does not have 70 blasting brass in the way.

Now...I do agree the pit gets overlooked Honestly....thats a positioning issues. Didn't these guys ever hear of the sweet spot right behind the pit? Really great place to hear how things work front to back.

[Jeff Ream]

BINGO.

a lot actually. Again, it comes down to using eyes and ears.

[drumcat]

WGI is in an entirely different environment where honestly, pit balance is far better controlled. Looking at the sheet as it's designed, you won't be able to tell a lot of that from the stands. WGi also does not have 70 blasting brass in the way.

Now...I do agree the pit gets overlooked Honestly....thats a positioning issues. Didn't these guys ever hear of the sweet spot right behind the pit? Really great place to hear how things work front to back.

And if that's out of the form, I'm ok with that, too. Totally reasonable.

I could make more of an argument about why they need to be a few rows up, but for me it isn't about the personal whims of a judge. My opinion on *how* they judge is very minor compared to the safety risk of being "out there". They deem it unsafe enough until July 4th; I'd say July 5th is no more safe. Even if a judge could be just as proficient hauling behind out to the back hash 25, dodging rifles and feet, it isn't worth it. But for judges to get a better read and be safer for themselves and the kids... this is no-brainer stuff IMO.

[Shadowtron]

Ridiculous to see judges running in and out of performers. It is a distraction to the audience, safety hazard to those involved, and does not enhance the quality of work. Do you really need to be in the unit the entire performance? Scanning from field level on the outside is fine.

[skywhopper]

Hop proposed moving the Percussion judge to the box in January 2010 (ah, the good old pre-G7 days when we'd have 10 rule change proposals a year...). It got voted down in the instructors caucus, so I guess the corps never voted on it directly.

[Jeff Ream]

And if that's out of the form, I'm ok with that, too. Totally reasonable.

I could make more of an argument about why they need to be a few rows up, but for me it isn't about the personal whims of a judge. My opinion on *how* they judge is very minor compared to the safety risk of being "out there". They deem it unsafe enough until July 4th; I'd say July 5th is no more safe. Even if a judge could be just as proficient hauling behind out to the back hash 25, dodging rifles and feet, it isn't worth it. But for judges to get a better read and be safer for themselves and the kids... this is no-brainer stuff IMO.

you will not...repeat NOT...get a better read off the field. At best you'll get a second MA read with an emphasis on percussion. Why do you think Crown is scoring well on MA? Because upstairs, with the pit plugged in and that brass line wailing, you can't hear the clarity issues.

I'm part of a circuit that did an upstairs test last fall. And the results were wildly different because upstairs, even with smaller bands, they couldn't hear stuff the guys on the field could.It ended up being music ensemble tape 2, with some GE sprinkled in.

[drumcat]

Jeff, a few things... you sort of clarify my argument.

1st, you're suggesting that Crown is getting poor scores because the MA judge is upstairs?

2nd, you're suggesting that unless a percussion judge is "in the form", his/her work is duplicative of the MA judge?

A few things... I'm not suggesting that the quality of execution judging is better from the press box. I'm not suggesting it's worse; I'll let others decide that. I'm not surprised that you had large variations between field-level and press box-level judges, since part of the job of a staff is to minimise the errors seen from that distance. I won't argue there; if it were me, I'd want to be in row 3, but that's just my opinion.

That said... I don't care about the MA judge. MA isn't a performer health issue.

So let me restate all of this - agree or disagree...

Percussion evaluation (not just battery evaluation) is reasonably able to be done well without having to be within a 10-foot radius of any battery performer during movement.

I believe it can. Jeff, if you disagree, I'd love to know why you feel otherwise.

[wilme861]

I like the idea of the field judges being moved to the sideline or front rows. For those that say you can't judge from there, I disagree completely. In all groups I've performed in, the instructors were 95% of the time on the sidelines or up with the other instructors in the box listening and critiquing. The only times they ever were on the field with us was for mock judge runs so we could get used to having someone in front of us.

Btw, I can remember what year but in one of the cavies shows in the early 2000s a member can be heard yelling at the judge to move on the DVDs. I want to say it's 2003 but can't remember exactly.