stop the corps folding

[Stu]

Drum corps is by its very nature competitive. If there are no judges, the corps don't get to learn what needs to be done to continue to improve. That would be a great disservice to the members.

It would be like having a football game without the keeping of scores. If the teams just threw the ball around, the lack of scores wouldn't reveal what section of the team needed improving.

This isn't a symphony orchestra concert the fans go for personal edification. Even if a corps doesn't score that well, the members still want to know they are continually improving...feedback they and their instructors need prior to and in between the premier events that it was suggested above is judged.

Boo: I am playing Devils Advocate here, because I think the competitive nature is very vital, but... could not the feedback you are describing be in the form of commentary evaluation from professional insight given to each corps, at each show, just like the tapes are done now, without scores and rankings entering the picture?

[Michael Boo]

DCI doesn't have the control you guys are picturing

DCI doesn't need a "cap" - it needs better options for corps with less resources -- some shorter tour options... shorter season options...

A mid-season "National Championship" at San Antonio would be a good first step for Open Class - and then a "World Championship" for Open Class at Indy

Also they should shorten the overall season by a week to save $$ and avoid the growing school conflicts

IMHO.

I respect your ideas and you make some valid points.

However, the season has already been shortened by one week at the beginning and another week at the end because of schools finishing later and starting earlier. At this rate, we might someday have to start the season at Minneapolis, head to San Antonio, proceed to Atlanta and then forsake Allentown because it's time for the World Championships. And if schools go year-round...(shudder).

[BRASSO]

But YOUR use of the slogan is intentionally wrong.

Your read is always intentionally literal so you can trot out your silly comment about how DCI calls themselves a major-league sport.

No.

They don't.

DCI marketed itself to ESPN. Not to Bravo. Nor to Ovation TV. Not to A & E. Espn is a sports station. Its where we watch athletes in competition, and sports teams in competition. Were you around then ?

DCI invested in a televised segment prepared and broadcasted to the world on comparing the heartbeat of a marcher to that of an athlete. They hooked up a drummer with wires to monitor his heartrate at a typical practice run of the program.. They compared the result to an athlete in a competitive sport.

Steve Rondinaro had a written script delivered to the audience about how these DCI performers are ( quote ) " like finely tuned athletes '. He utilized all manner of sports phrases, all manner of favorable comparisons to athetes and athletic teams. He still does this on air... presumably with DCI's blessing. They brought former basketball coach Bob Knight on to be interviewed. Former QB Steve Young to be interviwed at DCI Championships. In the recent past, the broadcast has been chock full of subtle ( and not so subtle ) comparisons to sports and athletes and athletic competition. The notion that DCI has not willingly compared itself, and on occasion margeted itself as akin to youth sports, and athletes, flys in the face of reality of what they have actually done in their most recent past re. marketing, branding. The moniker of " Marching Music's MAJOR LEAGUES " was selected by DCI along the same timeline that they were marketing themselves to ESPN. Anyone that thinks that the " Major Leagues " branding portion for the marketing wasn't selected for its sports athlete connection has to believe that it was all just a collosal coincidence.

Edited August 17, 2013 by BRASSO

[CrownStarr]

a) 1990 and 1991 DCE, DCM, etc... was still in existence;

b) In 1990 Crown only did thirteen shows, all in the east, even beating out three other corps on July 20 in their eighth show ever performed, not venturing any farther west than Alabama; they finished 33rd in the top-tier division at DCI Finals.

c) In 1991 Crown only did fifteen shows (most as an A/A60 corps 'not' in the top-tier division), they finished 2nd (out of 16 corps) in the DCE A/A60 prelims and 3rd in DCE A/A60 Finals, they stayed mainly in the east, and never ventured farther west than Texas; they finished 25th in the top-tier division at DCI Finals

d) they did this in '90 and '91 in the name of sustainable and responsible growth without deficit spending themselves out of existence.

How can that even remotely be considered a 'spectacular failure'?

You missed the operative word - I said they were a spectacular failure competitively. I was also only talking about their first year of existence. So the only point from your list that is what I was talking about was their dead last finish in (their version of) World Class. Kevin Smith has a long talk he gives about Crown's history, and in that talk he's very clear about the fact that going for the (equivalent of) World Class in their very first year was a mistake of over-confidence, which is why they dropped back down to Div II until winning the Div II championship.

[Michael Boo]

Boo: I am playing Devils Advocate here, because I think the competitive nature is very vital, but... could not the feedback you are describing be in the form of commentary evaluation from professional insight given to each corps, at each show, just like the tapes are done now, without scores and rankings entering the picture?

If we were to provide professional feedback, it would have to come from actual judges who will be looking for the changes to occur and would be judging the corps under a specific kind of criteria (that comes from DCI training) as the season progresses. Therefore, there would be no cost savings to DCI and the corps if judges were there, but not judging to provide a number to each corps.

Who...in a position to know what the DCI judges want and expect, could we get to do this for free?

We could get local band directors and high school guard instructors to judge local shows, but without the endless hours of judges training provided the DCI corps, their comments might not be very useful to the corps. "Oh...I like what you're doing here...Keep it up." Or, "This isn't working for me. You need to do more of what you're not doing so far."

Professional feedback costs something...whether a score is attached or not. But since the judges would have to be there so the corps would collect feedback they could actually use, they might as well give a number. It's not going to cost anything more.

[Stu]

You missed the operative word - I said they were a spectacular failure competitively. I was also only talking about their first year of existence. So the only point from your list that is what I was talking about was their dead last finish in (their version of) World Class. Kevin Smith has a long talk he gives about Crown's history, and in that talk he's very clear about the fact that going for the (equivalent of) World Class in their very first year was a mistake of over-confidence, which is why they dropped back down to Div II until winning the Div II championship.

But even in their first year of existence, 1990, on July 20, in only their eighth show of DCI competition, Crown (with a score of 54.0) beat Southwind (with a score of 51.8), Cardinals (with a score of 44.90), and Fajardo (with a score of 33.8); and they all were judged on the top-tier sheets. So while Crown was not high placing at DCI Finals, they were not a 'Spectacular Failure' in their first year as you contend.

[N.E. Brigand]

Corps fold because of mismanagement, period. Even if the MC managers were top-notch, they obviously erred in their predictability of market forces feeding the coffers! How to start a drum corps:

1) How will we raise money?

2) Is the answer to #1) Sustainable?

3) What do we do for Plan B?

THE REST DOESN'T MATTER! (designers, instructional staff, recruitment, etc)

Their press release may as well read: "We folded because we were wrong in our assessment of sustainable resources."

Same for Glassmen, and for every other corps that has ever folded.

Have you ever seen a corps fold, but the press release said "We have lots of money, but no one seems to want it, so we folded anyway."

This sounds right. That said, it appears that there is more mismanagement than good management in drum corps, since the number of corps keeps shrinking. There are a few people who think there ought to be fewer corps, but to the majority of people here who are not pleased with that state of affairs, I ask: how can it be fixed?

On further reflection, I would add that shutting down before circumstances forced Music City's hand arguably is not mismanagement. (Empire Statesmen are apparently going out on their own terms: is that mismanagement? Need every corps last forever?) And furthermore, that it's possible that the most successful corps' leaders, had they been in charge of M.C., might have done worse. (If Blue Devils' leaders magically found themselves in charge of Glassmen, could they have come up with a new revenue stream in the absence of bingo?) Sometimes the conditions are beyond anyone's control. Persisting in such a situation would be mismanagement.

[CrownStarr]

Well, now we're just splitting hairs as to what precisely constitutes a "spectacular failure" and what doesn't. Agree to disagree, I think.

[Stu]

Well, now we're just splitting hairs as to what precisely constitutes a "spectacular failure" and what doesn't. Agree to disagree, I think.

A corps making it through their first season, without folding, without going into massive debt, competitively beating three other corps in only their eighth show ever, setting the foundation on a rock which allows that same corps to take home the top-tier gold twenty-three years later, to me that first year was a 'tremendous success' not a 'spectacular failure'. So yeah, I suppose that we will agree to disagree.

[skywhopper]

MARKETING SLOGANS DO NOT EQUATE TO REALITY!

Get over the Major League moniker Stu. It's marketing-speak -- not reality. No one really believes DCI is a top tier professional sports league. It's catchy. It's easy for the uninitiated to understand. It doesn't really matter if it's particularly accurate. MOST marketing slogans aren't !!!

Heh, the G7 used the fact that the slogan is "Marching Music's Major League" to argue for dropping support for any groups that weren't clearly superior to the best high school and college marching bands... just sayin.