What really makes Drum Corps so different

[Stu]

And don't kid yourself either that pro sports, for example, have remained "practically the same for the past several decades," untouched by those who would corrupt the perfection and beauty of their essence. The designated hitter, the three point circle, hockey and football rules which purists say have emasculated their respective sports.... I know folks will hop up and say "still three outs/still four downs, basket is still 10 feet high," and so on. But the aforementioned modifications (among many other changes both in rules and in performance strategies, conceived and instituted for many and varied reasons) are major game-changers, fully the equivalent of the kind of changes we have seen as our activity has evolved. A 1950s era athlete would have more than a little difficulty adjusting to the modern game.

I say ‘Completely Bunk’ to the bolded statement above about sports!!! A 1950's era basketball player certainly made shots outside of distance of the top of the key arch, he just scored 2 points instead of three so no performance issue difference is there; a 1950’s era pitcher would do nothing more today than just refrain from batting with the current designated hitter rule so again no issue there either; a 1950’s era football player would just drink a little water and wait like everyone else while the ref reviewed a play with the current instant replay challenge rule; etc… Where in the world are you coming from stating that these players would “…have more than a little difficulty adjusting…” to the current major sports rule differences? None of these sports have added anything which morphs or changes the actual inner workings of those sports. Now on the other hand, a 1950’s era Drum Corps performer certainly would have a huge amount of difficulty adjusting to the current high velocity asymmetrical drill, the modern body shaping dance moves, electronic amplification, 3-valve Bb horns, six-drum tenors, Kevlar snare heads, ad infinitum.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Stu

[BRASSO]

And don't kid yourself either that pro sports, for example, have remained "practically the same for the past several decades,"

Don't kid yourself if you believe that the minor changes made in the games of soccer, baseball, hockey, football are in any degree comparable to that of the changes undergone with the Drum & Bugle Corps since for example 1960. Whether we like, dislike or simply tolerate the changes is one thing... but it serves no purpose in my view to not acknowledge the revolutionary changes that the Drum & Bugle Corps activity has undergone since 1960 compared with these sports. These sports of 1960 share much more in common with 2013 than you give them credit for. A Corps from 1960 looks and sounds nothing at all like a DCI Corps of 2013. We should at least all here agree with this point anyway, before we move on to other areas where there might be legitimate disagreement. Drum Corps is primarily known for the changes it has made to itself. These sports are primarily known by contrast for the absence of any fundamental changes in the constructs of the sport except mostly minor changes. Their main weapons of competition have not changed at all since 1960. Drum Corps weapons of competition by contrast has drastically changed since 1960.

Edited December 26, 2013 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

Given the how the activity is shrinking, do you think continuing to do the same thing is a viable approach?

If things aren't working, then evolution is a necessity.

There has never been a period of time in which Drum Corps ' continued to do the same thing ", so we really don't know if " continuing to do the same thing " would have put us in better overall stabilty than the activity finds itself in today. Moving forward, we need to ask ourselves if what we are doing now, needs to be changed once again so that we can jump start the activity and provide the activity better growth prospects, better revenues, better exposure, better stability,etc

[GUARDLING]

I hate when a question begets more questions. I understand this isn't a one sentence answer. I'm not looking for one sentence.

Lets that Singerland's analogy of a farm system. Very few corps had smaller corps such as the Kiltie Kadets, Colt Cadets or Phantom Legion. Saying those D2/3 corps were feeder corps isn't true either. yes maybe 5-10 people might have moved up but not enough to really consider, say, Simplex Minutemen a feeder for 27 or Rivermen a feeder for Colts or Madison.

People mention the cost. IN the 80s you needed horns, drums guard equipment and uniforms. Now you need all that plus 30 tables, or ten 20 foot boxes or 4 sets of stands, electronic equipment, a new uniforms every year, new horns and drums every other year. Which now means an extra semi trailer, staff bus because every section needs an instructor. When I marched we had 2 drum instructors, 1 color guard guy and a couple of horn people. Now you needs a snare tech, tenor tech, bass tech, cymbal tech, Every horn section has a tech. I think we now have more techs then we had drummers in 84. This doesn't take into account the increased cost of gas, insurance

I think Fred might have it wrong also. The crowds are still the same in many areas. Its just the number of corps have gotten smaller. It cost entirely too much to field a competitive corps. My friend has an AAU team that travels. It cost each player $200 a season. Starting a drum line or color guard after equipment can be done for less then $10,000 for the whole season. For a 30 person drum line that's less then $400 a year.

No other activity has done more to kill itself then drum corps. We had a national telecast that many could kill for and now we're down to a simulcast that probably averages 75 seats per theater. How much did we lose by not being on PBS. We keep increasing cost without increasing income to meet demand. Sadly, the only way to save this activity is to reduce the number of marchers, change the whole format, possibly going indoors with 60-80 members. Going to different seasons. Do you realize the attention we would get by doing halftime shows at NBA games or Arena Football games.

But you say its a summer time activity. Well going into a winter or spring activity with smaller corps would bring more local kids meaning there would be more regional shows increasing the exposure which means more exposure which means more money per corps. An cycle of increasing success instead of the current cycle of increasing entropy.

Oh please don't say the corps today are better then the corps of yesteryear and you would rather have 20 great corps and not 50 mediocre corps. Yes I'm in the group of I would rather have 10 Blue Devil/Cadet/SCV level corps, 15 Crossmen/Sky Ryders/Freelancer level corps, 20 Surf/Northstar/Memphis Blues level corps and 30 Pioneer/Rivermen/Sagniaires level corps. And even better 40 Bandette/7th Regiment/NY Lancers level corps. All on the field today. If you get a chance listen to some of the corps from the 80's, not just the top 12 but from prelims or lower classes. Best show I ever went to was 86 Allentown DCI East D2/3 show.

Edited December 26, 2013 by GUARDLING

[ScoutMello]

There has never been a period of time in which Drum Corps ' continued to do the same thing ", so we really don't know if " continuing to do the same thing " would have put us in better overall stabilty than the activity finds itself in today. Moving forward, we need to ask ourselves if what we are doing now, needs to be changed once again so that we can jump start the activity and provide the activity better growth prospects, better revenues, better exposure, better stability,etc

I'm not saying that all the changes made over the years have been successful. But right now the activity does not appear to be in a healthy and sustainable state, and that being the case it is wholly inappropriate to 'stay the course'.

something something definition of insanity something something...

[GUARDLING]

There has never been a period of time in which Drum Corps ' continued to do the same thing ", so we really don't know if " continuing to do the same thing " would have put us in better overall stabilty than the activity finds itself in today. Moving forward, we need to ask ourselves if what we are doing now, needs to be changed once again so that we can jump start the activity and provide the activity better growth prospects, better revenues, better exposure, better stability,etc

even take out all internal changes decade to decade one cant really know , external change happens all the time....people bark at 2 many flags made to electronics used now........................look at facility rental of schools, fields, transportation....external....now one can say stay local.....sure......well there arent 50 corps in a state anymore so whos competiting against who...someones traveling.........I know you know this but others ( some really need to realize...........IT AINT GOIN BACK................it cant even if drum corps cut out all progression and gave it a rest for a while.......................i know Blackstar doesnt like a question..with a question BUT one does have to ask.....as things were, IF it were possible to STAY THE SAME....would that be a good thing and would the activity have died even faster if it did.

[GUARDLING]

I hate when a question begets more questions. I understand this isn't a one sentence answer. I'm not looking for one sentence.

Lets that Singerland's analogy of a farm system. Very few corps had smaller corps such as the Kiltie Kadets, Colt Cadets or Phantom Legion. Saying those D2/3 corps were feeder corps isn't true either. yes maybe 5-10 people might have moved up but not enough to really consider, say, Simplex Minutemen a feeder for 27 or Rivermen a feeder for Colts or Madison.

People mention the cost. IN the 80s you needed horns, drums guard equipment and uniforms. Now you need all that plus 30 tables, or ten 20 foot boxes or 4 sets of stands, electronic equipment, a new uniforms every year, new horns and drums every other year. Which now means an extra semi trailer, staff bus because every section needs an instructor. When I marched we had 2 drum instructors, 1 color guard guy and a couple of horn people. Now you needs a snare tech, tenor tech, bass tech, cymbal tech, Every horn section has a tech. I think we now have more techs then we had drummers in 84. This doesn't take into account the increased cost of gas, insurance

I think Fred might have it wrong also. The crowds are still the same in many areas. Its just the number of corps have gotten smaller. It cost entirely too much to field a competitive corps. My friend has an AAU team that travels. It cost each player $200 a season. Starting a drum line or color guard after equipment can be done for less then $10,000 for the whole season. For a 30 person drum line that's less then $400 a year.

No other activity has done more to kill itself then drum corps. We had a national telecast that many could kill for and now we're down to a simulcast that probably averages 75 seats per theater. How much did we lose by not being on PBS. We keep increasing cost without increasing income to meet demand. Sadly, the only way to save this activity is to reduce the number of marchers, change the whole format, possibly going indoors with 60-80 members. Going to different seasons. Do you realize the attention we would get by doing halftime shows at NBA games or Arena Football games.

But you say its a summer time activity. Well going into a winter or spring activity with smaller corps would bring more local kids meaning there would be more regional shows increasing the exposure which means more exposure which means more money per corps. An cycle of increasing success instead of the current cycle of increasing entropy.

Oh please don't say the corps today are better then the corps of yesteryear and you would rather have 20 great corps and not 50 mediocre corps. Yes I'm in the group of I would rather have 10 Blue Devil/Cadet/SCV level corps, 15 Crossmen/Sky Ryders/Freelancer level corps, 20 Surf/Northstar/Memphis Blues level corps and 30 Pioneer/Rivermen/Sagniaires level corps. And even better 40 Bandette/7th Regiment/NY Lancers level corps. All on the field today. If you get a chance listen to some of the corps from the 80's, not just the top 12 but from prelims or lower classes. Best show I ever went to was 86 Allentown DCI East D2/3 show.

without being or sounding rude........when was the last time you were involved doing a color guard or percussion line?......How is a competitive guard going to do this for less then 10 grand....whos teaching ? ...volunteers?....where they practicing?....a school?...church?...civic center?...hmmmmmmmmm how much do you think that cost for time...noone gives that stuff away anymore.........most i know will pay up to 15 grand for a winter season...are they doing WGI...hmmm travel?......association fees?........regional fees.....local association fees?....its not 1970 nothing is free..unless you have some MOM sewing ( that stopped along time ago for most.........ever get uniforms for say 30 kids? ( not walmart stuff either) ok thats maybe 3-5 grand........as far as percussion....who buying, borrowing and transporting that stuff?...............would be so nice if you were right.........but you aren't...sorry.about it.......take the internal changes out and just look at external costs in 2013 to run a group and that alone cant be compared to even 20 years ago.....and the telecast never worked because of low ratings and money for pledges NEVER came in...it didnt for for the station.......................................................

Multiple staff.........................there I would agree....somewhat...when I started teaching all the way up to the early 90s I did most of the work with maybe 1 or 2 assistants...yes I have had multiple DCI and DCA championships in my area as well as many many WGI finaliits and medals, alot of the trouble today is many young staff..................do not do it all...whos a writer, whos a tech....who is a movement person who is strictly equipment so on and so on...................................................BUT, with all due respect...................like many subjects....same ole same ole...year after year

Edited December 26, 2013 by GUARDLING

[GUARDLING]

I'm not specifically making a statement about crowd size, more referencing the oft-heard complaint about fewer corps/smaller crowds, the two of which frequently seem to be voiced together. No argument if your experience/observation has been different. My main point is that there are a lot of factors that have influenced the fortunes of the activity over the years, not all of which are the direct result of DCI, corps administration or instructional/creative staff, as Gary seemed to be saying in his post.

Fred O.

100 % right..........many external issues that have NOTHING to do with the corps.or contemporary decisions

[GUARDLING]

I say ‘Completely Bunk’ to the bolded statement above about sports!!! A 1950's era basketball player certainly made shots outside of distance of the top of the key arch, he just scored 2 points instead of three so no performance issue difference is there; a 1950’s era pitcher would do nothing more today than just refrain from batting with the current designated hitter rule so again no issue there either; a 1950’s era football player would just drink a little water and wait like everyone else while the ref reviewed a play with the current instant replay challenge rule; etc… Where in the world are you coming from stating that these players would “…have more than a little difficulty adjusting…” to the current major sports rule differences? None of these sports have added anything which morphs or changes the actual inner workings of those sports. Now on the other hand, a 1950’s era Drum Corps performer certainly would have a huge amount of difficulty adjusting to the current high velocity asymmetrical drill, the modern body shaping dance moves, electronic amplification, 3-valve Bb horns, six-drum tenors, Kevlar snare heads, ad infinitum.

I hate sport compariions that you love so much but that aside..you are assuming that the 1950s drum corps person couldnt do todays programs..( If I read this right ) If not sorry Stu).well I would agree BUT you only are looking at and selectively assuming that that same 1950 kid wouldnt be trained to do todays show.....to me...its only part of it to make the argument....even todays kid can;t do todays show without alot of training.

I do hear my own piers from BITD say the same...." I could never do what they do )....I always say that's true if we were trained the way we were BUT why would be trained the same way...we wouldnt ..we would have been trained to do whats presented.....soooooo YES we could have done it

Edited December 26, 2013 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

... you are assuming that the 1950s drum corps person couldnt do todays programs..( If I read this right ) If not sorry Stu)...

Nope, not assuming that at all; and no apology necessary just a need for clarification. I am positive that a youth in 1950 could produce the same performance level as a youth from 2013 irrespective of the athletic activity. What I stated was that a drum corps performer from 1950 would have a 'harder time adjusting' to 2013 DCI than a 1950 baseball player would to 2013 MLB, or a 1950 basketball player to 2013 NBA, or a 1950 football player to 2013 NFL. Because there have been many, many, many ‘drastic’ changes to the drum corps activity from 1950 to 2013, especially in DCI, whereas there have only been a few very ‘small’ changes to the activities of baseball, basketball, and football within the same time period.