HornTeacher Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) In the orchestral field, musicians for many orchestral openings are selected based on a "behind-the-screen" basis. Selectors have no knowledge of the identity of selectees. All assessment is done on a "blind" basis...no knowledge of who the performer is, what he or she looks like, and thus, no knowledge of any "affiliation" one auditioner might have, either on the basis of training, affiliation, or (possibly) influential teacher. That said... The site: Lucas Oil Stadium. When: a Friday/Saturday weekend in late June. The ground rules: no DCI World-Class Corps may announce their program previous to this weekend. Friday: Every Corps selects a performance position from a hat. With each performance, each corps must have MM'S perform in white shorts and t-shirts. All silks must be white. No introductory announcement of any corps is made before their performance (and that includes the preceding spring months), other than "Corps X, you may take the field." To further assist in the random and "impersonal" nature of the event, there will be no audience attendance allowed. Scores for each "Corps X" will be established and recorded based on this "blind" performance. This score thus becomes a basis on which that Corps is compared through any and all following competition performances. Saturday: Every Corps selects a performance time from a hat. However, no Corps may be allocated a performance slot which they held on Friday. All Corps will appear in uniform, and all Guard may use intended colors and equipment for the coming season. An audience is allowed, with ticket prices being equal to what an early season show would normally bring. Question: Do you think this would result in some surprises as to the currently-held beliefs in terms of Corps placement? Or...is this an extremely stupid premise that deserves locking after one or two (or no) responses? (Note: This scenario is not being presented as any perceived injunction against current DCI judges or their assessments. It is only being submitted as to whether the subconscious relation of a Corps or Corps name affects how any, and possibly all, Corps may be assessed.) Edited May 25, 2014 by HornTeacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) In the orchestral field, musicians for many orchestral openings are selected based on a "behind-the-screen" basis. Selectors have no knowledge of the identity of selectees. All assessment is done on a "blind" basis...no knowledge of who the performer is, what he or she looks like, and thus, no knowledge of any "affiliation" one auditioner might have, either on the basis of training, affiliation, or (possibly) influential teacher. That said... The site: Lucas Oil Stadium. When: a Friday/Saturday weekend in late June. The ground rules: no DCI World-Class Corps may announce their program previous to this weekend. Friday: Every Corps selects a performance position from a hat. With each performance, each corps must have MM'S perform in white shorts and t-shirts. All silks must be white. No introductory announcement of any corps is made before their performance (and that includes the preceding spring months), other than "Corps X, you may take the field." To further assist in the random and "impersonal" nature of the event, there will be no audience attendance allowed. Scores for each "Corps X" will be established and recorded based on this "blind" performance. This score thus becomes a basis on which that Corps is compared through any and all following competition performances. Saturday: Every Corps selects a performance time from a hat. However, no Corps may be allocated a performance slot which they held on Friday. All Corps will appear in uniform, and all Guard my use intended colors and equipment for the coming season. An audience is allowed, with ticket prices being equal to what an early season show would normally bring. Question: Do you think this would result in some surprises as to the currently-held beliefs in terms of Corps placement? Or...is this an extremely stupid premise that deserves locking after one or two responses? (Note: This scenario is not being presented as any perceived injunction against current DCI judges or their assessments. It is only being submitted as to whether the subconscious relation of a Corps or Corps name affects how any, and possibly all, Corps may be assessed.) anything is possible and when corps are tenths apart , sure things can flip BUT I do think ( i know others don't ) that each corps for the most part would be easy to recognize . I don't think much, if anything would change. I suppose with a few in the beginning of the year it might be hard to tell who it is but I really think it would be very easy to tell , lets say BD from cadets , to PR to madison. There might be a few in there , not so much JMO Edited May 25, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 anything is possible and when corps are tenths apart , sure things can flip BUT I do think ( i know others don't ) that each corps for the most part would be easy to recognize . I don't think much, if anything would change. JMO Thank you, Guard. My reason for bolding certain words in you statement is that it exactly supports the reason which I posted the question in the first place. Yes, I would submit that "certain" corps would be recognized. As a result, the intended question remains: would they be assessed based on the specific (blind) Corps performance, or based on who they are "perceived" as being? If the Crossmens' drum line were to score a 18.1 on the first night, and upon recognition, the very same line scores a 16.9 one night later, then I would say that there MIGHT be a problem. (This is on a "for example" basis, understand...not picking on the Crossmens' drum line specifically). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) Thank you, Guard. My reason for bolding certain words in you statement is that it exactly supports the reason which I posted the question in the first place. Yes, I would submit that "certain" corps would be recognized. As a result, the intended question remains: would they be assessed based on the specific (blind) Corps performance, or based on who they are "perceived" as being? If the Crossmens' drum line were to score a 18.1 on the first night, and upon recognition, the very same line scores a 16.9 one night later, then I would say that there MIGHT be a problem. (This is on a "for example" basis, understand...not picking on the Crossmens' drum line specifically). well I do think there are always a few bad apples through out history in all activities including ours and people do have bias BUT I also think for the most part judges really do not care who is top or bottom ( at least they shouldnt care ) I do think as you go down the line ( not with everyone , let me stress ) that the differences become consistency , without naming any corps in you example YES I do think there can be a difference that much night to night because of , or lack of consistency. I have found the HIGHER you get, consistency and actually knowing how to get to the next step is , or can be very different. Not that it isn't impossible for , lets say a 17th place corps to be able to do it within a section. JMO Edited May 25, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterA Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I really do like this idea. I do feel however, that most of the judges, if they are the same from years past, will have a pretty good idea who most of the corps are. No offense meant, but most corps have something about them which gives away their identity, other than their uniforms. Madison and Cavies are an example, the only all male corps, but they have completely different sounds normally, and Cavaliers drill usually has a distinct look as well , so pretty easy with those two to figure out which is which. Phantom is usually the only corps these days with an all female guard so that one is pretty easy. Blue Devils and Cadets are usually pretty easy to figure out as well. Blue Devils have such an amazing brass sound, and Cadets drill is usually one of the best, so again, pretty easy to figure them out. And the examples are endless among the corps. I do think when you get to the 11-19th spots, it may be a little harder to guess which corps is which. You would also have to keep all of the staff from being around the field area, as almost every judge knows most of the staff of any given corps But to be honest, I love this in theory, and it would be interesting to see how close to the previous years finals week placements everyone comes. Most judges try not to place them more than 2 spots different than the previous year, until later in the season, regardless of how much improved, or how many steps backwards the corps may have taken. Taking this another step forward, I have always thought it would be fun for DCI to have a contest early season, where they put one minute of each corps show audio online, and have people guess which corps are which. Maybe even do it from camps before the season starts, and before some shows have been announced. Maybe have the prize as two tickets to finals to whoever gets the most right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 One thing which I intended to add, but was unsure of it's efficacy, was indeed touched on by you, MisterA. What if, during the Friday night's performance, all NON-visually related judges were to judge "blind"? That is to say, with no visual reference to each Corps. Almost on the basis of "behind the screen." Would that enhance the situation? I do agree with your caveat of "all staff not being around the field." That was inherent in my original ground rule of no audience. I DO realize that this falls into the category of "perfect world." In other words...Ain't gonna happen. But still...we're still in the off-season...so in my mind, anything goes in the interest of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 One thing which I intended to add, but was unsure of it's efficacy, was indeed touched on by you, MisterA. What if, during the Friday night's performance, all NON-visually related judges were to judge "blind"? That is to say, with no visual reference to each Corps. Almost on the basis of "behind the screen." Would that enhance the situation? I do agree with your caveat of "all staff not being around the field." That was inherent in my original ground rule of no audience. I DO realize that this falls into the category of "perfect world." In other words...Ain't gonna happen. But still...we're still in the off-season...so in my mind, anything goes in the interest of discussion. I agree most will know who is who , even blind BUT I also agree that from the lower 1/2 may be a little more difficult. There are many who believe corps are very much the same , I do not ( for the most part ) I get where you are going with this but there's alot of what if's...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 This all sounds great in theory, but the problem lies in how many things that identify a corps also identify the show and create effect. Flags, uniforms, drum finishes, props, etc... all change how the show is perceived, so naturally the scores would be very different from your hypothetical Friday night to your hypothetical Saturday night. I don't know that it would be particularly revealing to see those scores flop and change. Also, a blind music evaluation can take way one of a percussion judge's best tools. How else do you evaluate things like technical uniformity without the use of your eyes. Obviously, a blind percussion judge wouldn't be able to get out on the field and hear those nuances either. The same could be said for a brass judge. In short, I think the idea of a "blind" show might be intriguing, but there's just no way to make it happen and get any kind of realistic sample, much less reveal any issues in the judging. Any attempt at that sort of blind performance would mean changing the judging paradigm enough that changes in score from blind to not blind performances would be easily explained by those changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 I agree most will know who is who , even blind BUT I also agree that from the lower 1/2 may be a little more difficult. There are many who believe corps are very much the same , I do not ( for the most part ) I get where you are going with this but there's alot of what if's...lol As much as I absolutely abhor "what if's", I fully agree with you. I think you and I are pretty close on the pure philosophy of this issue, even if we slightly differ in the actual practice. And therein lies the beauty of discussion in it's purest form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) This all sounds great in theory, but the problem lies in how many things that identify a corps also identify the show and create effect. Flags, uniforms, drum finishes, props, etc... all change how the show is perceived, so naturally the scores would be very different from your hypothetical Friday night to your hypothetical Saturday night. I don't know that it would be particularly revealing to see those scores flop and change. Also, a blind music evaluation can take way one of a percussion judge's best tools. How else do you evaluate things like technical uniformity without the use of your eyes. Obviously, a blind percussion judge wouldn't be able to get out on the field and hear those nuances either. The same could be said for a brass judge. In short, I think the idea of a "blind" show might be intriguing, but there's just no way to make it happen and get any kind of realistic sample, much less reveal any issues in the judging. Any attempt at that sort of blind performance would mean changing the judging paradigm enough that changes in score from blind to not blind performances would be easily explained by those changes. Agree. Counter proposal for "blind judging": Every corps gets the same 3 minute piece with drill and guard work (all written by a DCI Emeritus panel who will not instruct or judge any of these corps for that season) . You must play, march and spin the production as written. All performers wear DCI issued black shorts, white tees, black baseball cap, black sneakers. Corps are judged on the bottom box ( "how") only. Compulsaries take place the night before each regional. Edited May 25, 2014 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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