Dir_en_X Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 One thing I think we are forgetting is the other half of the equation: The marchers themselves. They recognize which staff they want to be around and can make their decision on where to spend their summer. I've known people that have followed caption heads from corps to corps because they like how they run their caption. I would go so far as to say that the caption heads have a larger impact on an individual's summer versus the rest of the reasons someone decides to march somewhere (distance, money, organization, personality of the corps). Both years I marched I had two different sets of staff, and while the traditions of the corps and what made it special were intact, the educational experience I had was very different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllmerFUDD Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 DCI today is adults judging adults. It is not the marchers that are being judged anymore in competition that primarily generates the scores and placements. Not really. ( thats a passe false myth now.. that no longer holds true, as its time has come and gone.. despite the fact that in my observations, few want to acknowledge this, it seems to me ). Let me provide us an example. The Cavaliers finished 3rd in 2011, but had a 1 year drop of 5 places to 8th in 2012 to finish 8th. Raise your hand here if you believe The Cavaliers Corps had less overall marcher talent in their Corps in 2012 than in 2011 ? Raise your hand here if you believe the Cavaliers Corps overall had more marchers that worked less harder in 2012 than in 2011? Raise your hand here if you believe that the Cavaliers Corps overall had more marchers that worked less smarter in 2012 than 2011 ? Well, from looking around the room, it seems to me that noone has their hands raised. I'll assume then that we are all on the same page here on DCP that the 2012 Cavaliers Corps had veteran talent, that they worked just as hard, and worked just as smart, as the 2011 Cavaliers Corps. So why did they fall so quickly and so deeply in 1 year by 5 placement positions ? Well we know why. The Cavaliers lost long time Visual Show Designer, Michael Gaines, thats why.. Raise your hand here if you believe that the 2012 Cavaliers Corps that finished in 8th place would have done so if Gaines did the Show Design in 2012 ? I know, I know, its a stupid question. ( Of course they would not have ). So, what do reasonable and intelligent people conclude from this ? Well, that its the Adult Show Designers that have more bearing on placements than the marchers do. Its not logically possible and rational to believe that The Cavaliers could have saved themselves from plummeting 5 placement positions from 2011 to 2012, unless we want to go back and change our minds on my 3 questions above in the first paragraph, and raise our hands on those 3 questions, and thus believe that it was the youthful marchers in competition that were responsible for the judged competition plummet of 5 placement positions from 2011 to 2012. This observation is simply not true. The placement of a Corps is a result of the composite. Program, Design, Member Talent effort and execution as well as the instructional methods etc. IF Corps placement was purely a result of the “Adult Staff” then the following would also be true. You could take all the member from the Blue Stars put them in Crown last year and hey still would have been DCI Champions. This is obviously not true You could replace all of the members of Troopers with the members from BD and they still would have not made 2013 finals. Also not true Certainly the design team, staff, and program all make a difference but change the performers and the results will also change. Do not underestimate how important the performers are! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavfan930 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 This is a question I've had for a while, and I think this is a good thread to ask. Most if not all corps that have been in DCI for a while have a certain identity. The Cavaliers are supposed to be the machine, put out crazy drill. Phantom tells a story then kills somebody. Blue Devils do all kinds of weird stuff. Etc. So here's the question: If a corps has a certain reputation for doing something particularly well, or just for usually doing it, does it hurt their score more if they don't deliver in that caption than someone else? for example, the Cavaliers. They have Gaines for so long, and their drill really became their trademark. They consistently delivered some mind bending drill over a long period of time (I'm sure not every season was super crazy, but stay with me here). Then MG leaves and they get the new drill writer. It is admittedly not much like the craziness the audience and judges expect from them. Then say there's a corps who doesn't have that reputation and their visual is, if measured perfectly objectively (Impossible, I know, but for the sake of the question) exactly on par with what the Cavaliers actually deliver. I feel like because the Cavaliers have the reputation they will score lower on visual than the other group, even though they were the same. Keep in mind we are talking about the content portion of the caption, not how well the performers did with what they had. Obviously, we hope this doesn't happen, but I feel like it can and sometimes does. Thoughts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 SCV hit "rock bottom" with Bartok in 2010. Interesting difference of opinion. I thought it was an incredible show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleveland1 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Interesting difference of opinion. I thought it was an incredible show. I loved the show. By rock bottom i mean in placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I loved the show. By rock bottom i mean in placement. I hated both 2010 and 2011. Oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleveland1 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I hated both 2010 and 2011. Oops. So when they said "imagine you're in hell...and you want out" you always thought "easy, i'm already there" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 So when they said "imagine you're in hell...and you want out" you always thought "easy, i'm already there" Oh definitely. Other than maybe the ballad, I couldnt stand the musical program :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleveland1 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Oh definitely. Other than maybe the ballad, I couldnt stand the musical program :( I loved the program. Was disappointed in their brass though. So many mistakes at finals. But it wasn't really a show for Brass. It was a show for percussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) . You could take all the member from the Blue Stars put them in Crown last year and hey still would have been DCI Champions. This is obviously not true Thats too far down the DCI pecking order to make that analogy attempt of yours work. if the Blue Stars of last season had the same brass marcher talent that Crown did, their Corps does not struggle to barely make it out of the Semi's by 2 tenths to make Finals, even with the Blue Stars Brass arrangers and Brass Caption heads. But even with the Crown Brass marcher talent from last season in tow, the Blue Stars would not have made it into the top 7, as the adults in that Corps did not write them a Show Design that would permit this. The Cavaliers of 2012 were filled with veteran marcher talent. Certainly as experienced talent as in 2010 when they finished 2nd ( and 3rd in 2011). But they dropped 6 placement positions from 2010, in 2012. What was the principal reason for this ? Did the 2012 Cavs experienced and 22 year old age outs not work as hard as the Cavs Corps of 2010, 2011 ? I don't believe that for a second. My guess they worked just as hard if not harder ( as their scores were dropping ) than either the 2010, 2011 Cavs Marchers did., We ask ourselves then,,...well, if we all come to the agreement here that the the marchers in the Cavs of 2012 were not slackers, then what precipitated such a big 1 year drop in placement of 5 placement positions in 1 year ? Well, we should be able to figure that one out quite easily it seems to me.. It was the loss of 1 adult. It was principally the result of the fact that the Cavs of 2012 lost Michael Gaines, and as a result, the show design of 2012 wasn't nearly as good as that of 2010, 2011, and as a result their Corps was doomed to suffer placement slide in 2012 from the moment camps began in the offseason, no matter how hard those Cavs marchers busted their tails all that season " to clean " that 2012 show.. Even if spit polished and clean as a whistle, that 2012 Cavs Corps had no chance in the world of finishing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or even, 6th as the show design itself ( adult created ) made it impossible for the Cavs marchers of 2012 to have a snowballs chance in hell of finishing in the top 5 or 6 that season. Edited June 30, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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