Other corps that Left Us....Anyone Know Why They left Us?

[cixelsyd]

We used to have some former Brassmen members on Drum Corps Planet. Maybe they can respond to the reason they disappeared. I know they took in members of the Milford Shoreliners for the '73 season, and that was the final for the Brassmen. (The Shoreliners came back under their name for the '75-'77 seasons.)

At about the same time Milford Shoreliners released their members to the Brassmen, they also recruited some younger kids to start over. The new Shoreliners actually made it back into field competition at the end of the 1973 season.

[gsksun4]

Yes....Beaver Falls.

Once home to Joe "Willie" Namath. Born and raised.

[Bsader]

I know that more than a few people find this comment obnoxious but I'll repeat it anyways. Drum Corps folded because they allowed themselves to fold and that's your reason as to why. The shame of this is that their are no longer small, inexpensive Drum Corps available around this Country and Canada for young people today.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Bsader

[GUARDLING]

I know that more than a few people find this comment obnoxious but I'll repeat it anyways. Drum Corps folded because they allowed themselves to fold and that's your reason as to why. The shame of this is that their are no longer small, inexpensive Drum Corps available around this Country and Canada for young people today.

And why is there no longer small etc etc drum corps. Its been said over and over BUT what's your take on it. You are right as far as it is a shame there are not small local corps like the past BUT there are very good reasons for that , and it's not exclusive to drum corps in 2014. IMO also has nothing to do with tour models, DCI, show designs, what key corps play in, dancing guards etc etc, like many think.

Edited September 20, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Bsader]

Let's talk about the corps from over 20, 30 and even 40 years ago. I think they got caught up in their quest to compete at the highest level or the need to stay competing at the highest level and this need is driven by ego and feeding that ego requires money. That's why you had all that merger mania with corps not believing enough in themselves thinking that a merger was going to be the difference in making the finals. Sometimes this may have been the case but in being willing to change their names, change their uniforms and give up on their history this eventually made it far to easy for them to give up on themselves.

I joined the Crusader's in 1974 so I wasn't their at the end of '72 when the Crusader's nearly did fold and would have if not for the tenacity of the few remaining Crusader's that were willing to take the hit. What do I mean by this? I mean they were willing to put away their ego's in order to survive for the love of the Corp. The Crusader's ended up in 39th place that year in the D.C.I. prelims 36.75 points behind the SCV. This was only 3 years after coming in 2nd place in the 1970 VFW nationals and only 2 years after coming in 8th. My 2 older brothers marched that year and if you ask them about it they will tell you that it was an amazing experience. Why? Because they accepted the fact they weren't going to be able to compete so it all came down to just enjoying putting on their performance and being Crusader's which meant that they definitely enjoyed themselves off the field as well. Their was very little parental involvement in the mid to late 70's Crusader's which actually wasn't a negative for us because it meant that we were responsible for running our own Corp. Their were of course many wonderful parents back then putting in long hours in order to help their Corp but maybe in being so wonderful and taking on so many responsibilities it diminished the members feeling of ownership. That is in no way an insult. Some parents weren't so wonderful and fed their egos on the success of the corp and with their "winning is everything attitude" applied the pressure to spend, spend, spend. Also their were the parents, often the directors, whose heart was in the right place, but were misguided into thinking that spending the money in order to win was the best way for the members to have the most positive Drum Corp experience. So they spent the money irregardless as to whether it made financial sense.

Anyways, when the adults of these Corps felt their corp could no longer survive the director called all the members around so as to tell them that the Corp needed to fold. It could have been due to financial reasons or membership reasons or both. So these members who never knew the experience of being responsible for their own Corp, who never had to make any decisions regarding the corps future, didn't realize that they could tell this guy to go to hell, that this was their Drum Corp and they were the ones to say if it was going to fold, and it ain't. (Of course they didn't need to be so rude about it.)

So what you have today is a lot less Corps and these remaining Corps are Corps that are very well managed. In the case of the Crusader's they are survivalists and the rest, unless I'm mistaken, are Corps that were always so well run that they never really had money issue's or membership issue's and so were never at the point where they needed to decide whether or not they wanted to survive.

Now I know I might sound like I'm contradicting myself in regards to the current Crusader's and all the parental and adult involvement but I'm not. I feel that the Crusader's are actually in more jeopardy now of folding than when I marched which I'm sure does not seem possible. I'm not saying that they are anywhere close to folding just that they are closer than we were. What I mean is this, if the rug suddenly gets pulled out from under them I don't know if these young adults would be in any way prepared for that. I don't know if they are prepared to take the hit. I doubt that they have been given the freedom needed to learn that they can fall on their face and get back up on their own.

When it comes to surviving people can say that the Crusader's were the exception to the rule but that was only true because we made ourselves the exception to the rule. Were the Crusader's really that much different than the Kilties, 27th or the Bridgemen? I will assume we were in one way only and that was we were more responsible running our Corp. In the 5 years I marched with the Crusader's I do not recall one member quitting in order to join another Corp so as to make it to the D.C.I. finals. I believe that had a lot to do with members not wanting to join a Corp that they truly couldn't call their own and a Corp where they couldn't be responsible for themselves.

I haven't read a great deal about this issue but I have read enough to make me realize that these corps weren't willing to give up nearly enough in order to survive. As I've said I have also written about this issue in pretty much the same tone as I am here. As I remember a few responded back with derision as they apparently felt that I was some simplistic zealot. One even chose to mock me as if he was the class clown back in high school. But, as far as I know, the Boston Crusader's are still the only surviving Corp that truly knows what it was like to be living on the edge. It could be true that the Cavi's and Madison had their lean years but I have never heard anything that compares to what Boston went through. Others can complicate the issue all they want but I feel they are only doing so in order to deny it's simplicity.

So when I say that Drum Corps folded because they allowed themselves to fold I'm not talking about the adults who ran the Corp I'm talking about the members of that Corp who allowed the adults to tell them that their Corp had folded.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Bsader

[GUARDLING]

Let's talk about the corps from over 20, 30 and even 40 years ago. I think they got caught up in their quest to compete at the highest level or the need to stay competing at the highest level and this need is driven by ego and feeding that ego requires money. That's why you had all that merger mania with corps not believing enough in themselves thinking that a merger was going to be the difference in making the finals. Sometimes this may have been the case but in being willing to change their names, change their uniforms and give up on their history this eventually made it far to easy for them to give up on themselves. I believe it was also about parents having too much of the responsibilities that should have been left to the members. The members should have been responsible for running their own Corp. Of course a lot of the membership was young in many Corps but their is always an older element that should have been allowed to be involved and these older members are the ones who have the most influence on the younger members, not the parents.

Let me give you what should be considered an extreme example of this. I joined the Crusader's in 1974 so I wasn't their at the end of '72 when the Crusader's nearly did fold and would have if not for the tenacity of the few remaining Crusader's that were willing to take the hit. What do I mean by this? I mean they were willing to put away their ego's in order to survive for the love of the Corp. They certainly didn't put away their pride as I was witness to when I saw them perform their first show in '73 with only 17 brass and probably no more than 50 members. They got a sustained standing ovation at the end of the performance.

The Crusader's ended up in 39th place that year in the D.C.I. prelims 36.75 points behind the SCV. This was only 3 years after coming in 2nd place in the 1970 VFW nationals and only 2 years after coming in 8th. My 2 older brothers marched that year and if you ask them about it they will tell you that it was an amazing experience. Why? Because they accepted the fact they weren't going to be able to compete and so it all came down to performing. That's what they found they loved, putting on a show and then drinking beer in the parking lot after. That's what I found I loved when I joined the next year. We were able to do this because their was no one, except for the police, who said we couldn't. We had no chaperons as their was very little parental involvement and so very few adults around. We had parents raising money by running a Bingo game and some came to the shows but they weren't at our practices and they were most certainly not on the bus. The bus that the members hired from a busing company that a member of the Corp sent the check to.

So their was essentially no adults. Which meant as young adults and teenagers we had to be responsible for our own Corp and that's why the Crusader's survived. We survived because it was our Corp. Their were no adults to tell us we couldn't. We were nearly totally responsible for running are own Corp and being responsible for everything is where the pride come's from along with the attitude of "You can't take this away from us because this is ours." So, no parents to tell us we needed to fold so we decided on our own, despite many hardships, that we weren't. Again, this is an extreme but I'm using it to prove a point.

Their were of course many wonderful parents back then putting in long hours in order to help their Corp but maybe in being so wonderful and taking on so many responsibilities it diminished the members feeling of ownership. That is in no way an insult. Some parents weren't so wonderful and fed their egos on the success of the corp and with their "winning is everything attitude" applied the pressure to spend, spend, spend. Also their were the parents, often the directors, whose heart was in the right place, but were misguided into thinking that spending the money in order to win, or at least make the finals, was the best way for the members to have the most positive Drum Corp experience. So they spent the money irregardless as to whether it made financial sense. Anyways, when the adults of these Corps felt their corp could no longer survive the director called all the members around so as to tell them that the Corp needed to fold. It could have been due to financial reasons or membership reasons or both. So these members who never knew the experience of being responsible for their own Corp, who never had to make any decisions regarding the corps future, didn't realized that they could tell this guy to go to hell, that this is our Drum Corp and we are the ones to say if it's going to fold, and it ain't. (Of course they didn't need to be so rude about it.)

So what you have today is a lot less Corps and these remaining Corps are are Corps that are very well managed. In the case of the Crusader's they are survivalists and the rest, unless I'm mistaken, are Corps that were always so well run that they never really had money issue's or membership issue's and so were never at the point where they needed to decide whether or not they wanted to survive.

Now I know I might sound like I'm contradicting myself in regards to the Crusader's but I'm not. I feel that the Crusader's are actually in more jeopardy now of folding than when I marched which I'm sure does not seem possible. I'm not saying that they are anywhere close to folding but what I am saying is this. If the rug suddenly gets pulled out from under them I don't know if these young adults would be in any way prepared for that. I don't know if they are prepared to take the hit. I doubt that they have been given the freedom needed to learn that they can fall on their face and get back up on their own. Another reason for my opinion is that these young adults are from all over the country so that would certainly create a difficulty that I'm not sure social media would be able to overcome.

People can say that the Crusader's are the exception to the rule but that was only true because we made ourselves the exception to the rule. We wouldn't allow ourselves to fold. In the 5 years I marched with the Crusader's I do not recall one member quitting in order to join another Corp so as to make it to the D.C.I. finals. I believe that had a lot to do with members not wanting to join a Corp that they truly couldn't call their own and a Corp where they couldn't be responsible for themselves.

I haven't read a great deal about this issue but I have read enough to make me realize that these people aren't willing to give up nearly enough in order to survive. As I've said I have also written about this issue in pretty much the same tone as I am here. A few responded back with derision as they apparently felt that I was some simplistic zealot. One even chose to mock me as if he was the class clown back in high school. But, as far as I know, the Boston Crusader's are still the only surviving Corp that truly knows what it is like to be living on the edge. Others can complicate the issue all they want but I feel you are only doing so in order to deny it's simplicity.

So when I say that Drum Corps folded because they allowed themselves to fold I'm not talking about the parents who ran the Corp I'm talking about the members of that Corp.

All that is great. I know Cadets and other corps as well had some pretty bad issues as well, like many corps of the time. .People can Say what they want about Hopkins BUT he did help save that institution.

It is true, today it would be another story as you said. The world and the kid drum corps serves is very very different. The local corps , but not just corps but local civic clubs, church groups etc etc are all but dead. There is no way a church or a civic center will donate space for a rehearsal. A mere winter guard or percussion line can spend up to 15 grand or more just for some kind of space for a rehearsal. Kids have way more at their disposal then we ever did back in the day and many many more choices.

There are many reasons why that local thing is dead which has nothing to do with DCI, shows, etc etc. Corps who didnt survive did so by their own hand mostly. Not all cases of course BUT in most I would say.

The world in the 70s was changing big time and those who didn't change with it got left behind BUT with that said those who did decide to change but didn't know how to actually do it in all aspects faded away also.

Edited September 20, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Bsader]

You could be right as far as practice facilities but at the same time I think that if every member of the Corp put in the effort necessary to secure a place for their Corp to practice without taking a big financial hit then a place could be found. The members of the Crusader weren't waiting around for someone else to find us such a place as we found are own practice facilities. Using the word facilities is actually quite the overstatement as we practiced in what I believe was a small old pump house next to the Charles River. To this day I don't know how we fit the Corp into such a small building. Some of the members fixed it up and maintained it and the then M.D.C. turned a blind I and let us practice their for free. We practiced our drill at the Massachusetts Commonwealth armory which, if it was still around, would probably be beyond are finances but that would only mean that if we couldn't secure another facility we wouldn't have had any marching rehearsals until the end of March behind some strip mall as the Lancer's did. But again, I think that if a Corp had all their members, hat in hand, canvassing their local towns and cities then a place could be found.

I did a lot of editing in my response to you and I realize that I deleted a part in which I stated that I assumed that other Corps, still around today, have had their struggles. I mentioned the Cavi's and Madison but for some reason didn't think to mention the Cadets.It was a mistake on my part to have deleted it but the editing was done a 5:00 in the morning. I think it's great what Hopkins did but I hope that he had a great deal of help, as I'm sure he did, from the members.

As far as kids today having many more options, I agree, but I think that their were certainly enough options back then to effect recruitment and lure kids away from their Corp. As I stated before the 1973 Crusader's only marched a 17 member Brass section. I was able to balance year around sports and Drum Corp. I actually didn't march my senior year in order to focus exclusively on sports. I had, after all, joined the Crusader's at age 14. I knew that my leaving was not going to effect whether or not the Crusader's would survive as I knew that they weren't going anywhere. I also ended up coming back and marched for 5 years.

As far as Corps not surviving due to their own lack of financial judgement I can only say that the Crusader's history is full of financial decisions that were so disastrous that the Corp, in no way, should have survived. But it did. One thing I should make clear is that my writings come off as if each member contributed equally in helping the Crusader's survive. That is not the case. Also I was certainly far from being as involved in the Crusader's survival as other members were. But I was a part of it and in being a part of it makes feel that I can respond the way I am to this topic.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Bsader

[GUARDLING]

You could be right as far as practice facilities but at the same time I think that if every member of the Corp put in the effort necessary to secure a place for their Corp to practice without taking a big financial hit then a place could be found. The members of the Crusader weren't waiting around for someone else to find us such a place as we found are own practice facilities. Using the word facilities is actually quite the overstatement as we practiced in what I believe was a small old pump house next to the Charles River. To this day I don't know how we fit the Corp into such a small building. Some of the members fixed it up and maintained it and the then M.D.C. turned a blind I and let us practice their for free. We practiced our drill at the Massachusetts Commonwealth armory which, if it was still around, would probably be beyond are finances but that would only mean that if we couldn't secure another facility we wouldn't have had any marching rehearsals until the end of March behind some strip mall as the Lancer's did. But again, I think that if a Corp had all their members, hat in hand, canvassing their local towns and cities then a place could be found.

I did a lot of editing in my response to you and I realize that I deleted a part in which I stated that I assumed that other Corps, still around today, have had their struggles. I mentioned the Cavi's and Madison but for some reason didn't think to mention the Cadets.It was a mistake on my part to have deleted it but the editing was done a 5:00 in the morning. I think it's great what Hopkins did but I hope that he had a great deal of help, as I'm sure he did, from the members.

As far as kids today having many more options, I agree, but I think that their were certainly enough options back then to effect recruitment and lure kids away from their Corp. As I stated before the 1973 Crusader's only marched a 17 member Brass section. I was able to balance year around sports and Drum Corp. I actually didn't march my senior year in order to focus exclusively on sports. I had, after all, joined the Crusader's at age 14. I knew that my leaving was not going to effect whether or not the Crusader's would survive as I knew that they weren't going anywhere. I also ended up coming back and marched for 5 years.

As far as Corps not surviving due to their own lack of financial judgement I can only say that the Crusader's history is full of financial decisions that were so disastrous that the Corp, in no way, should have survived. But it did. One thing I should make clear is that my writings come off as if each member contributed equally in helping the Crusader's survive. That is not the case. Also I was certainly far from being as involved in the Crusader's survival as other members were. But I was a part of it and in being a part of it makes feel that I can respond the way I am to this topic.

You certainly should be commended for your part in that history and your help. Todays world is so so different . I had a cafeteria to work on drill with a winter guard and it cost over 15 grand, Noone gives anything away anymore nor donates much either, equipment costs are through the roof, liabilities are crazy. In most circuits you cant even walk into a gym without a million dollar liability policy. Its so crazy but so is the rest of the world we live in compared to back in the day. Let me ask you a question , In YOUR opinion ( not others please , don't want a huge derailment on this ) if 27 didn't eventually fold do you think BC would have? Just curious as to your take on it. Thanks

[Bsader]

As for your first points I think the liability cost is the main issue and admittedly one that I had not taken in to consideration. I do think that the Crusader's would have been able to find a place where we would have been able to fly under the radar on this issue. After all the Crusader's were masters of living in the shadows. This was due to all the Dark Ops and Covert activity we were involved in for the government during this time. And if any parent or member were to pursue a suit involving injury against a facility that was allowing the Crusader's to rehearse at, well we were well practiced at the art of dissuasion and if this was not enough we always had the option of making that parent or member disappear. After all a large amount of the membership was from South Boston and if you have been watching CNN lately.....

Anyways, this may actually require someone from 27th to be involved and someone from Boston who marched the year 27th folded. I am not fully aware as to the reasons 27th folded and more importantly when they did fold did they have a full Corp? The Lancer's were different from Boston in that they had a lot more members who were not from the Boston area who would have found it easier to find another Corp in the area they were originally from, though in writing this I do realize that any Lancer member who was old enough and from the Boston area could have traveled the country in search of a Corp. This reminds me of the topic "If you could march in any Corp other than your own, what Corp would that be?" The Lancer's gave themselves this option as they chose to no longer be themselves.

I am curious if any chose to march Boston and if Boston would have accepted them if they did. There was a lot of unnecessary bad blood between the Corps that stemmed from the late 60's. As I've said in another thread I don't remember any problems between Boston and the Lancer's during my years, we just kept our distance. It was as if we were going through the motions and keeping with tradition. I do know that it kept a lot of non-Crusader's and non-Lancer's entertained with thoughts as to whether or not a brawl was suddenly going to break out between the Corps. We always heard these rumors as to how the Crusader's were going to brawl with the Lancer's or more often the Skyliner's. That was the rumor that was most often out there. That a group of Skyliner's were driving up from Jersey in order to brawl with the 'Saders. This is what kept us entertained.

Boston was a very insular Corp and so we never really hung out with any other Corps never mind the Lancer's. Some of this was probably due to an underlying, unnecessary fear that, in being so small, the possibility of any members being lured away to other Corps could be the end of us. If that was indeed the case then that was a fear that we buried deep in ourselves. Was it even there? We all have primal fears, especially the fear of predators and predation. Survival as an individual is very much tied to the survival of the tribe. So with the Crusader's being so outnumbered their probably was this repressed fear but a fear that no member of the Corp was going to admit to, after all and for the most part, we were a bunch of tough guys. But, if it was there, it was a unnecessary because, as I've said, the years that I marched no one ever ended up joining another Corp. This was mainly because we were having way to much crazy fun being on our own and running wild. No other Corp in the history of Drum Corp could have been nearly as Loony as the Crusader's were at this time. So the Crusader's and the Lancer's never hung out despite the fact that we practiced less than 10 miles away from one another.

I know I'm veering off topic here but I'm going to continue for a bit. I remember it was 1979 when the corp started to have fun with omitting the #27 when we were doing our Jumping Jacks. The corp was so much younger in '79 than in previous years. As a senior member I was going to put an end to it but I chose not to. I just felt that it was so absurd and more to the point, tongue in cheek, I let the "youngsters" be. I didn't think that it would have the extended life span that it did. If I had known this then I would have ended it as I feel it made Boston come across as a Corp that was paying much more attention than it actually was as to the existence of the 27th Lancer's . Anyways the Lancer's and Boston didn't hang out as I believe we both knew the past would eventually catch up. I performed with the Mini Corp "Mass Brass"and the exhibition Corp "The Legends of Drum Corp." Their were Crusader's,Lancer's and North Star in these Corps and we all got along fine. Of course their was a lot of good natured kidding.

So, maybe it's time to answer your question. I think the Crusader's would have survived no matter what. It wouldn't matter if the Lancer's still existed or, for that matter, the North Star as well. Would they have had a more difficult time with recruitment, absolutely. But if it meant marching with a smaller Corp then the Crusader's would have done so. If it meant not making the finals then the Crusader's would have accepted not making the finals and continue to survive. But this is only if it was the case of the Lancer's and the Northstar having never gone away. If the Lancer's and the North Star were to suddenly start up now and suddenly have full Corps and in doing so undermine the Crusader's ability to recruit and in doing so greatly reduce their membership and greatly reduce their chances of making finals. Then that is an intriguing question as I don't know if the current Corp, having never known what it was like to have to survive, would be able to take the hit, put away their ego and hunker down. It is a question as to how much they are truly connected to their history as opposed to how much is mere lip service. I'm hoping I'm underestimating them. I suppose it would take a lot of alumni to come out of the woodwork so as to help inspire them and assist them. Though I must say that when I marched their was hardly any alumni involved with the Corp. This had a lot to do with their hostility towards our then director, a feeling that I shared with them. Also, even if the Lancer's and the North Star were still around that would only leave, I believe, 25 top Corps. Forgive me if I'm wrong. With the national recruitment Boston is involved in I'm sure they would end up with a full contingency of members. It's a shame when you think of it in that it would make the competitions so much more interesting with 3 Massachusetts corps vying for bragging rights as the top dog.

Finally, and a point that I should have made at the beginning, a large majority of the Crusader's are from Florida. At least I think this is still the case. So, as another responder wrote in a previous topic, it's not so much to do with the Lancer's not folding as it has to do with a certain Florida Drum Corp or even Drum Corps folding. Was it Sun Coast Sound? Having said all this I feel certain that the Crusader's surviving had nothing to do with whether of not the Lancer's were still around. One of my favorite on the field years in the Corp was '79 which was a year the Lancer's came in 5th place and the North Star came in 9th. Me marched that year with 25 Brass and around 60 members at best, but we blew the doors down. Off the field we were a bit less feral than previous years as we were a lot younger and so it was not my favorite year off the field, that would have been 1977. We were totally Loony-Toons that year.

I'm hoping that this statement is not necessary but my opening paragraph is very much tongue-in-cheek though I can understand how those familiar with the Crusader's of my day would taken it at face value. It was all in fun.

[ajlisko]

We always heard these rumors as to how the Crusader's were going to brawl with the Lancer's or more often the Skyliner's. That was the rumor that was most often out there. That a group of Skyliner's were driving up from Jersey in order to brawl with the 'Saders. This is what kept us entertained.

Interesting rumor ... wonder where it came from ... maybe Tony Smith? ... he was Sky's drill guy in 78 and 79 ... and the Crossmen ... was he still involved with Boston as well? ... the only time I can remotely remember Sky and BC in a tense moment was at the 65 World Open in Bridgeport ... and that was Pepe "interacting" with some Crusader Alums in the stands ... it ended quickly and quietly ... speaking of Bridgeport, there was one corps-on-corps bash that occurred between BC and St. Lucy's in 1968 ... definitely one for the ages ... even the quartermasters went after one another ... anyway, back to Sky driving up to Boston to brawl ... nada ...

:-)

ps - your musings on the Crusaders are quite good ... I'm wondering if we've ever met ... I do most of the MCing at the BHOF shows where the Mass Brass, Legends and Crudaders Sr perform ...