cixelsyd Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 One thing that I think has changed is what the idea of 'balanced' is with the addition of amplification and electronics. I am not privy to any inside info, but IMO a person can not listen to a corps with an ear attuned to what they consider good balance before A&E. An ensemble with electronic instruments and amplified percussion instruments will generate a different sound, but it may be balanced in terms of itself, while those listening with "old ears", so to speak, might hate it. Of course, it may not be balanced under those concepts either, of course. But IMO, a lot of the complaints on DCP about corps not being penalized for 'bad' balance is due to that change in the concept. Take the concept of 'thunderous goo' that gets thrown around here. I've been at some of the same shows as people who write about that happening, yet IMO the sound generated was marvelous, when taken in terms of today's sound. Could there be out-of-balance sounds? Sure, but IMO it is just not the issue some here make it out to be. If someone has "old ears", as you say, they will think every corps in DCI is out of balance. That is a different discussion. There are performances which are clearly out of balance by contemporary standards. Some are acoustic imbalances, such as a corps with more battery percussionists than horn players. Or a large hornline that projects inexplicably weak sound. Some are imbalances involving electronics, such as a pit overbalancing an entire hornline, or a subwoofer cranked so loud that it distorts throughout the performance. Electronics can also be too soft, such as in cases where failure of connections leave a synthesizer or vocal mics inoperative, and those performers are rendered inaudible. When the imbalance is acoustic in nature, it is evaluated by the judges and scored accordingly. When it is electronic, no such scoring impact occurs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 If someone has "old ears", as you say, they will think every corps in DCI is out of balance. That is a different discussion. There are performances which are clearly out of balance by contemporary standards. Some are acoustic imbalances, such as a corps with more battery percussionists than horn players. Or a large hornline that projects inexplicably weak sound. Some are imbalances involving electronics, such as a pit overbalancing an entire hornline, or a subwoofer cranked so loud that it distorts throughout the performance. Electronics can also be too soft, such as in cases where failure of connections leave a synthesizer or vocal mics inoperative, and those performers are rendered inaudible. When the imbalance is acoustic in nature, it is evaluated by the judges and scored accordingly. When it is electronic, no such scoring impact occurs. But the very definition of out of balance is the question. You really think something as bad as you indicate would not have a score impact? People on DCP who do listen to current tapes have said that there are indeed comments made about balance issues with amps or electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) If someone has "old ears", as you say, they will think every corps in DCI is out of balance. That is a different discussion. There are performances which are clearly out of balance by contemporary standards. Some are acoustic imbalances, such as a corps with more battery percussionists than horn players. Or a large hornline that projects inexplicably weak sound. Some are imbalances involving electronics, such as a pit overbalancing an entire hornline, or a subwoofer cranked so loud that it distorts throughout the performance. Electronics can also be too soft, such as in cases where failure of connections leave a synthesizer or vocal mics inoperative, and those performers are rendered inaudible. When the imbalance is acoustic in nature, it is evaluated by the judges and scored accordingly. When it is electronic, no such scoring impact occurs. Much truth in this. However, Concert Band teachers/conductors/directors are continually concerned with the balance of their groups, which contain both wind instruments and percussion instruments. In the end, they must seek to achieve a proper balance between the two disparate groupings if their ensemble is to achieve a maximally effective musical performance. Jazz Ensemble teachers/conductors/directors are continually concerned with the balance of their groups, which contain winds, percusssion, and electronic (guitar, bass if using the electric variety, synthesizer, and/or electric piano if not using the acoustical) instruments. In the end, they also must seek to achieve a proper balance between the three disparate groupings if their ensemble is to achieve a maximally effective musical performace. I, either in my naivete or ignorance, don't understand why the responsibility of the Drum and Bugle Corps staff is any different. To me, at the end of the day, Balance is balance. Imbalance is Imbalance. My greatest error may truly be in being too "black and white." Edited October 2, 2014 by HornTeacher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 But the very definition of out of balance is the question. You really think something as bad as you indicate would not have a score impact? Have yet to see it happen in DCI. In marching band, I have seen electronic failure of that magnitude reflected in the score, so why should DCI treat it differently? People on DCP who do listen to current tapes have said that there are indeed comments made about balance issues with amps or electronics. That only matters if their scores reflect their comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Have yet to see it happen in DCI. In marching band, I have seen electronic failure of that magnitude reflected in the score, so why should DCI treat it differently? That only matters if their scores reflect their comments. The problem is what one person thinks of as horrendous out of balance...thunderous goo...doesn't come across to another the same way. As I had stated earlier, I have been at shows where I then read reviews by some about how terrible the balance was...too much synth...thunderous goo, etc, and I felt as if I must have been to a different show, as I had no such issues with the overall sound. I just think a lot of it is the mindset of the listener. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 The problem is what one person thinks of as horrendous out of balance...thunderous goo...doesn't come across to another the same way. As I had stated earlier, I have been at shows where I then read reviews by some about how terrible the balance was...too much synth...thunderous goo, etc, and I felt as if I must have been to a different show, as I had no such issues with the overall sound. I just think a lot of it is the mindset of the listener. Are you suggesting that a dead vocal mic or synthesizer connection might be assessed by a judge as "proper balance"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 One thing that I think has changed is what the idea of 'balanced' is with the addition of amplification and electronics. I am not privy to any inside info, but IMO a person can not listen to a corps with an ear attuned to what they consider good balance before A&E. An ensemble with electronic instruments and amplified percussion instruments will generate a different sound, but it may be balanced in terms of itself, while those listening with "old ears", so to speak, might hate it. Of course, it may not be balanced under those concepts either, of course. But IMO, a lot of the complaints on DCP about corps not being penalized for 'bad' balance is due to that change in the concept. Take the concept of 'thunderous goo' that gets thrown around here. I've been at some of the same shows as people who write about that happening, yet IMO the sound generated was marvelous, when taken in terms of today's sound. Could there be out-of-balance sounds? Sure, but IMO it is just not the issue some here make it out to be. when you can't hear Crown's brass over the sounds coming out of the speakers, yet you see 19's in ensemble, there's an issue LOL ( Allentown the other year....09 I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Are you suggesting that a dead vocal mic or synthesizer connection might be assessed by a judge as "proper balance"? No. where did I state that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Have yet to see it happen in DCI. In marching band, I have seen electronic failure of that magnitude reflected in the score, so why should DCI treat it differently? That only matters if their scores reflect their comments. To be clear: have you heard the hundreds of tapes made the last few seasons of every corps to verify that no judge ever complained about balance? Have you been to critique and heard judges say something like, "yeah I just overlooked the egregious balance failure." Or are you going more on the thought of, "I thought it was loud but that corps still did well so there is a systematic judging failure." I'm not picking a fight or trying to be facetious, I'm genuinely curious. I've talked to staffer who have said their score was not what it could've been because of balance problems (both of the "too loud" and "too soft" variety). I've talked to a few judges who mentioned electronic failures as a reason why a corps maybe didn't achieve as high a score as they would've had the electronics worked (with the, "live by the technology/die by the technology" adage). I think just because it might not be obvious (i.e. Cadets are not going to go from second to fifth because their narration mic failed one night) doesn't mean judges don't take that into account when determining effect or music scores. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 To be clear: have you heard the hundreds of tapes made the last few seasons of every corps to verify that no judge ever complained about balance? Have you been to critique and heard judges say something like, "yeah I just overlooked the egregious balance failure." Or are you going more on the thought of, "I thought it was loud but that corps still did well so there is a systematic judging failure." I'm not picking a fight or trying to be facetious, I'm genuinely curious. I hope so... but your wording does seem a bit facetious, and thus does not match my mindset in either case. No, I am not interviewing judges, comparing their recorded commentary to score sheets, or anything like that. Nor am I ranting about why judges do not share my personal tastes. I am focusing on the most egregious possible problems, like the ones I described, so that there will be no question that they are issues that should affect the resulting score. If I recall, you were the one who suggested that judges might not let their scores be impacted by problems that stem from equipment shortcomings because the members are not at fault. Since you seem to have some exposure to judge feedback, you tell me - do you know if DCI judges subscribe to that philosophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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