How hard is it for a corps to make a major move up after July 1? An an

[Green Fleurdelis]

I have long been interested regarding the topic of "slotting" and the difficulty of placement advances after the first few weeks of the season. I wanted to see if my opinions had any factual basis or not.

So I looked at the scores** and placements from July 1 to Finals, for each of the previous five years (2010 - 2014).

Here are the corps who jumped up more than one position (x to y); and how far behind the "y" corps they were on July 1 (i.e. - the deficit they overcame).

2014 -- Blue Knights (11th to 8th); 3.3 pts

2014 -- Bluecoats (6th to 2nd); 1.8 pts

2013 -- Bluecoats (8th to 5th); 1.1 pts

2013 -- Boston (13th to 8th); 3.8 pts

2012 -- Crown (4th to 2nd); 1.2 pts

2011 -- Blue Devils (4th to 2nd); 2.4 pts

2011 -- Bluecoats (9th to 7th); 0.1 pts

2011 -- Cadets (3rd to 1st); 2.3 pts

2011 -- Santa Clara (8th to 6th); 1.5 pts

2011 -- Blue Knights (13th to 9th); 3.45 pts

2010 -- Blue Devils (5th to 1st); 0.85 pts

So, other than 2011 it is a pretty rare occurrence to jump up more than a single position after July 1. And only 5 times has a corps overcome more than a 2 point margin. With 60 data points, that's is pretty infrequent.

Even with the unreliability of comparing the non-head-to-head east coast to midwest to west coast scores as of July 1, the sobering conclusion is pretty clear -- a jump in position after July 1 when you are "behind" by more than 2 points is possible, but very rare (in recent history at least).

You may wonder "other than the above, how many corps made a jump up of a single spot after July 1?"

The answer is:

2014 -- Blue Devils (2nd to 1st)

2013 -- Phantom (7th to 6th)

2012 -- Cavies (9th to 8th)

2011 -- Phantom (6th to 5th)

2010 -- Blue Knights (12th to 11th)

2010 -- Blue Stars (9th to 8th)

2010 -- Madison (11th to 10th)

Yep. Things are pretty well set by July 1.

I don't think it was always this way, especially back-in-the-day (see signature for the years I marched). But I don't have any proof of my opinion on this -- the data is buried deeper than I have the patience to excavate. I think we had to rely much more on execution and passion which was more variable than the focus on show design these days. Show design is much harder to change as the season progresses, and does not have the same show-to-show variability.

** using corpsreps.com and dciscores.com

[HornTeacher]

"Slotting" doesn't exist. We've heard that from DCI...and we've heard that on DCP. Therefore, it's a fact of life. Accept it. Live with it. Love it. Go forth and guide your very existence by it. Slotting does NOT exist. Anytime. Anywhere. To anybody.

(Now clicking heels together and stating with utmost responsible pride, reverence, and honor: "Jawohl, Mein Fuhrer."

(Gonna burn in eternal Hell for that one.)

Edited June 24, 2015 by HornTeacher

[GUARDLING]

I have long been interested regarding the topic of "slotting" and the difficulty of placement advances after the first few weeks of the season. I wanted to see if my opinions had any factual basis or not.

So I looked at the scores** and placements from July 1 to Finals, for each of the previous five years (2010 - 2014).

Here are the corps who jumped up more than one position (x to y); and how far behind the "y" corps they were on July 1 (i.e. - the deficit they overcame).

2014 -- Blue Knights (11th to 8th); 3.3 pts

2014 -- Bluecoats (6th to 2nd); 1.8 pts

2013 -- Bluecoats (8th to 5th); 1.1 pts

2013 -- Boston (13th to 8th); 3.8 pts

2012 -- Crown (4th to 2nd); 1.2 pts

2011 -- Blue Devils (4th to 2nd); 2.4 pts

2011 -- Bluecoats (9th to 7th); 0.1 pts

2011 -- Cadets (3rd to 1st); 2.3 pts

2011 -- Santa Clara (8th to 6th); 1.5 pts

2011 -- Blue Knights (13th to 9th); 3.45 pts

2010 -- Blue Devils (5th to 1st); 0.85 pts

So, other than 2011 it is a pretty rare occurrence to jump up more than a single position after July 1. And only 5 times has a corps overcome more than a 2 point margin. With 60 data points, that's is pretty infrequent.

Even with the unreliability of comparing the non-head-to-head east coast to midwest to west coast scores as of July 1, the sobering conclusion is pretty clear -- a jump in position after July 1 when you are "behind" by more than 2 points is possible, but very rare (in recent history at least).

You may wonder "other than the above, how many corps made a jump up of a single spot after July 1?"

The answer is:

2014 -- Blue Devils (2nd to 1st)

2013 -- Phantom (7th to 6th)

2012 -- Cavies (9th to 8th)

2011 -- Phantom (6th to 5th)

2010 -- Blue Knights (12th to 11th)

2010 -- Blue Stars (9th to 8th)

2010 -- Madison (11th to 10th)

Yep. Things are pretty well set by July 1.

I don't think it was always this way, especially back-in-the-day (see signature for the years I marched). But I don't have any proof of my opinion on this -- the data is buried deeper than I have the patience to excavate. I think we had to rely much more on execution and passion which was more variable than the focus on show design these days. Show design is much harder to change as the season progresses, and does not have the same show-to-show variability.

** using corpsreps.com and dciscores.com

I dont believe there is slotting I do believe neighborhoods are created, but this is based on a corps performance, design etc etc. NOT by a judge. I believe corps SLOT , if you need to use that word, slot, themselves. I do thin k we like to blame others for this happening but IMO we do it to ourselves ( corps) we just aren't willing to always admit this . This happens in many ways, late starts, less talent, a show that works or doesn't right from the beginning, a show that may challenge but isnt looked at realistically by staff as in to hard to achieve ( we've all seen those ) to easy and fizzles out by the end.

Many things can cause these things to happen to a corps including how their tour personally is going, internally, rest, hard work etc etc.

IMO can a corps move up after july 1st? Yes I do, Is it easy? depends , but usually no it is not easy, but what is. This to me is also a mind set. There have been corps over the years who felt no sense of urgency and thought all that matters was after early july, This is true but only if a corps has the horses so to speak to pull off a late start and a glorious finish. Listening, is another factor. Some staffs will argue a point till the bitter end instead of looking at it from another point of view and then the last 2 weeks change like crazy. Doesn't work that way.

I think looking back in years ( as you pointed out ) yes corps could jump all over the place but imo it had nothing to do with being better by points or not as good by 3 or 4 positions from the week before but all to do with judging accountability ( or lack of it ) There was a cringe worth common statement BITD and it was " I saw it like I called it " stopped many in a conversation. This could not fly now ( thank goodness ) There were many other factors also some legit ( to many to get into ) some a little shady I think.

#### I hate long posts and here i am..sorry

Original question YES a corps can make a big move after July 1st NO it's not easy and this i also think has alot to to who is around you in competition. Might be easier to jump from 11th to 10th or 9th verses 3rd to 1st. not that it hasn't happened on occasion.

Edited June 24, 2015 by GUARDLING

[Ghost]

I dont believe there is slotting I do believe neighborhoods are created,

Original question YES a corps can make a big move after July 1st NO it's not easy and this i also think has alot to to who is around you in competition. Might be easier to jump from 11th to 10th or 9th verses 3rd to 1st. not that it hasn't happened on occasion.

So, with little movement and neighborhoods are created, that to me, means you have found a slot.

[HornTeacher]

I suppose that it is my responsibility to support my earlier irresponsible post. So here it is...(and this is based upon a long list of suppositions, I grant you)

SUPPOSE:

1) Pioneer goes through a very secretive (to the activity), yet nevertheless successful, change in its' ways.

2) They recruit an unheard-of level of top-notch talent (performers) which is unmatched in DCI history.

3) They induce, along with the staff they already possess, a talented team of teachers, designers, and instructors ever known to exist within the annals of DCI.

4) They decide upon a program entitled "Coppolatism." It's, in it's own way, much akin to "Felliniesque"...yet, also quite different.

5) From the very first competition, they march it, play it, design it, and "toss" it at the very same levels that BD was at in its' very first "Felliniesque" show in 2014.

6) Comments at first show generally consist of nothing other than "FANTASTIC improvement from last year!!!"

7) Resulting in a first competition score of 64.8. (And by the way...Blue Devils' first score for the 2014 season was, if I am not mistaken, a 72.200.

Question:

Are they going to come out of the gate and score a "72.200" at their very first show? Don't give me the pusillanimous response "different year, different panel." Yes, we know all of that. But this question is being asked more from a rhetorical point of view. You all know that, too. But...the question still stands. Would Pioneer, given the same exact improvements to their organization that the Blue Devils possess...and march the very same type of program...and design and march it every bit as well as the Blue Devils' first performance in 2014....would anyone dare to assign it the same score?" Other than the situation of "leaving an out for those above" (which, by the way, provides all the nay-sayers with a wonderful point of proof, all without having to actually prove it), can anyone justify why any lower score should be assigned? If I were to guess, the most common response would be "Well...the other groups scored (were competitively) lower this year. Hence, the difference." To that, I cry "########."

It's a nice little racket that DCI (and its' sycophants) has formed in terms of its' judging and scoring. Lots of past points of which to refer....lots of past competitions of which to compare (although one is not supposed to compare year to year. Some may say that I am doing the very same thing in my scenario. But I am not. I'm trust trying to compare apples to apples. It's many others who are suddenly attempting to mix oranges into the applesauce. That's not on me. That's on them.)

Just a little food for thought. One way or another, someone is eventually going to choke on it.

Edited June 25, 2015 by HornTeacher

[GUARDLING]

So, with little movement and neighborhoods are created, that to me, means you have found a slot.

you as in a corps? ok if you want to call it that BUT noone did this to anyone. Slotting , at least to me is a prejudgement. We rank and rate, thats how it works.

Now slotting , I think most think happens by outside elements and not by corps themselves. Has it happened in the past? maybe maybe not for the most part I think corps place themselves in areas pretty much. Even I hated to admit that at times but for the most part it happens to be true.There also has been times corps have proven themselves to be at a different level..upward or downward. It alll comes out in the end so to speak.

Either way there will always be and always has been contrary opinions of course.

Edited June 25, 2015 by GUARDLING

[sdstar]

FWIW, Blue Stars went from the neighborhood of 12th place on July 1st to 8th place on finals night in 2008. It's probably safe to consider 2008 to be part of the current era of drum corps.

[GUARDLING]

I suppose that it is my responsibility to support my earlier irresponsible post. So here it is...(and this is based upon a long list of suppositions, I grant you)

SUPPOSE:

1) Pioneer goes through a very secretive (to the activity), yet nevertheless successful, change in its' ways.

2) They recruit an unheard-of level of top-notch talent (performers) which is unmatched in DCI history.

3) They induce, along with the staff they already possess, a talented team of teachers, designers, and instructors ever known to exist within the annals of DCI.

4) They decide upon a program entitled "Coppolatism." It's, in it's own way, much akin to "Felliniesque"...yet, also quite different.

5) From the very first competition, they march it, play it, fesign it, and "toss" it at the very same levels that BD was at in its' very first "Felliniesque" show in 2014.

6) Comments at first show generally consist of nothing other than "FANTASTIC improvement from last year!!!"

7) Resulting in a first competition score of 64.8. (And by the way...Blue Devils' first score for the 2014 season was, if I am not mistaken, a 72.200.

Question:

Are they going to come out of the gate and score a "72.200" at their very first show. Don't give me the pusillanimous response "different year, different panel." Yes, we know all of that. But this question is being asked more from a rhetorical point of view. You all know that. But...the question still stands. Would Pioneer, given the same exact improvements to their organization that the Blue Devils possess...and march the very same type of program...and design and march it every bit as well as the Blue Devils' first performance in 2014....would anyone dare to assign it the same score?" Other than the situation of "leaving an out for those above" (which, by the way, provides all the nay-sayers with a wonderful point of proof, all without having to actually prove it), can anyone justify why any lower score should be assigned? If I were to guess, the most common response would be "Well...the other groups scored (were competitively) lower this year. Hence, the difference." To that, I cry "########."

It's a nice little racket that DCI (and its' sycophants) has formed in terms of its' judging and scoring. Lots of past points of which to refer....lots of past competitions of which to compare (although one is not supposed to compare year to year. Some may say that I am doing the very same thing in my scenario. But I am not. I'm trust trying to compare apples to apples. It's many others who are suddenly attempting to mix oranges into the applesauce. That's not on me. That's on them.)

Just a little food for thought. One way or another, someone is eventually going to choke on it.

I think there would be more willing to assign a deserved score than you might think. As for the example you are giving. Love you posts all the time but wow that's alot of if's

I say ok IF PIO came out exactly as you say it would be very hard to deny them. With that said the burden of proving ones self is upon those who want or need to convince others. not just judges

Personally I have over the years fought for and very much against the system and even today is very flawed for sure but in this case of corps placements or the conspiracy of slotting ( unless Im reading it wrong ) i think corps are more in control of that than most think. Is it hard to move? sure but there are alot of factors to that.getting better and moving up means someone who was above you has to be not as good as they were, not improve etc etc. Sucks for sure but thats competition

Edited June 25, 2015 by GUARDLING

[Ghost]

Slotting , at least to me is a prejudgement

Slotting, to me (and maybe others), by early July, in most years, many corps find themselves in a consistent placement. The percentage of those corps who make very good movement upward after July 1st is not good. No, I do not have stats, just years, like most of us, of seeing very little upward movement. For those who love doing such stuff, grab several years, take the first regional placements and compare them with finals. Yes, there will be corps who end up a spot higher, but two or three spot movements are pretty low.

[HornTeacher]

I think there would be more willing to assign a deserved score than you might think. As for the example you are giving. Love you posts all the time but wow that's alot of if's

I say ok IF PIO came out exactly as you say it would be very hard to deny them. With that said the burden of proving ones self is upon those who want or need to convince others. not just judges

Your point, Sir, is well taken. However, I would ask your kind indugence if I hold to the questions of my original post. I am not trying to be argumentative...in fact, I feel that, in this case, it is I who is actually attacking the question from the greatest degree of logic. If we depart on that, then hopefully we shall kindly agree to disagree.

(And no, under any false pretense or feigned authority, am a politician. My posts might read otherwise....but I assure you that it is still possible for a small town country boy to still possess at least a modicum of intelligence. Which, I must say, is more than I can say for some who currently represent you and I in government. But the wisest of us already know that, don't we?)

Edited June 25, 2015 by HornTeacher