How hard is it for a corps to make a major move up after July 1? An an

[Tim K]

Not all slow starts are created equally. While overall it's pretty clear who will do what by season's end early on, it's not an exact science.

Some factors can include

1. A corps that has talented members and an excellent show that takes time to master. Some would put PR and "Spartacus" in this category, perhaps Cadets and "Angels and Demons."

2. Partial judging panels. When we have full panels, the judging becomes more even and placements become more apparent.

3. There are also the occasional surges and the reality of plateauing.

While in some years things may be set as early as July 1st, the San Antonio show may be more accurate.

[GUARDLING]

As the Original Poster, in retrospect I probably should not have used the term "slotting". It implies a predestination or collusion, which I don't think exists.

What I think the data shows is that significant movement in relative placement after July 1st is rare. Not impossible. Just unusual. To the extent there is "slotting" or "neighborhoods", it is a consequence of early season performances. Not a precursor of placements.

And at the risk of repeating myself, I think the reason for the lack of significant placement movement has to do with the supreme importance of show design -- how all the elements (music, percussion, drill, guard, theme) work together. (I am still in awe of last year's Blue Devil's show from a design perspective.)

The design teams of every corps continue to tweak their show up until the day of finals. But I propose that the reason the placements remain relatively static after July 1 is that 70-80% of the show remains the same. By July 1, it is what it is.

Now of course, because of the handful of exceptions, every corps has hope. And they continue to work hard. If I were a betting man I'd lean heavily on the July 1 relative positions. But in reality, it is much safer to simply adhere to the 1st Rule of Frisbee Throwing, namely "say nothing more predictive than 'watch this'."

And of course, while I'm talking about placements here, I know there are rewards in this activity that go far beyond placement.

Youre right about other rewards. Even as far as competition. Competition is just not whos in 1st. Its who cracks top 5, top 10 moves up from the past, makes finals finally, semis. etc etc there is competition all over the place

[jwillis35]

This can open up a lot of good discussions.

I think we need to approach this from a different perspective, or at least consider other alternatives for the reasons that it's hard to move up after July 1. I never really bought into the slotting thing, at least not in terms of total score and placement, but sometimes with captions you do wonder. But we must also consider that this ultimately shows how good and consistent judging is these days. DCI judges are highly trained and good at what they do. It's doesn't take them long to figure out who performs the best in various captions, where the demand is, to evaluate the content, and to judge the achievement of the marching members.

This also speaks to the consistency and excellent training that our marching members are receiving in every corps out there. Every corps works hard. They all practice a lot, have excellent instructors, and usually we see each corps max-out their performance come DCI Finals. So moving up or down ultimately depends on the product given to the members and the physical and artistic demand placed on the members.

As we used to say many moons ago, some shows, once maxed out, can only go so far due to GE and demand. The GE part is fairly subjective and certainly causes quite a few arguments with staff and judges, not to mention here on DCP. The demand aspect can also be subjective, but is usually a bit more scientific and can help to put a show into a box (Box 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) which will ultimately affect many of the performance caption scores.

Edited June 25, 2015 by jwillis35

[GUARDLING]

Not all slow starts are created equally. While overall it's pretty clear who will do what by season's end early on, it's not an exact science.

Some factors can include

1. A corps that has talented members and an excellent show that takes time to master. Some would put PR and "Spartacus" in this category, perhaps Cadets and "Angels and Demons."

2. Partial judging panels. When we have full panels, the judging becomes more even and placements become more apparent.

3. There are also the occasional surges and the reality of plateauing.

While in some years things may be set as early as July 1st, the San Antonio show may be more accurate.

You are right. there are many factors that contribute . As I said earlier IF one moves up its because IMO staff listens, rehearsals are productive and timely and kids have the horses to endure and produce. Alot of factors there

[Green Fleurdelis]

While in some years things may be set as early as July 1st, the San Antonio show may be more accurate.

Probably. I bet that after San Antonio, movement is even more rare. (Rarer?) Frankly I was kind of surprised at the predictive nature of the July 1 placements, especially if the scores were less than 2 points different. And with the complication of a lack of head-to-head competition. Perhaps the judging across the country is less variable than believed.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Green Fleurdelis

[Ghost]

But I found a new term: neighborhoods!

You're welcome.

[BRASSO]

This can open up a lot of good discussions.

I think we need to approach this from a different perspective, or at least consider other alternatives for the reasons that it's hard to move up after July 1. I never really bought into the slotting thing, at least not in terms of total score and placement, but sometimes with captions you do wonder. But we must also consider that this ultimately shows how good and consistent judging is these days. DCI judges are highly trained and good at what they do. It's doesn't take them long to figure out who performs the best in various captions, where the demand is, to evaluate the content, and to judge the achievement of the marching members.

This also speaks to the consistency and excellent training that our marching members are receiving in every corps out there. Every corps works hard. They all practice a lot, have excellent instructors, and usually we see each corps max-out their performance come DCI Finals. So moving up or down ultimately depends on the product given to the members and the physical and artistic demand placed on the members.

As we used to say many moons ago, some shows, once maxed out, can only go so far due to GE and demand. The GE part is fairly subjective and certainly causes quite a few arguments with staff and judges, not to mention here on DCP. The demand aspect can also be subjective, but is usually a bit more scientific and can help to put a show into a box (Box 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) which will ultimately affect many of the performance caption scores.

Show Design ( adults created ) has far more points that can be had on today's judging sheets than execution ( marchers driven ).

Exhibit A we can use to prove this point are The Cavaliers from 2010- 2012. Cavs medaled in both '10-11, but plummeted 5 spots to 8th in 2012. Unless one believes that the 2012 Cavs members were not as talented, were not as hardworking, were not as smart, were not as motivated, were not as team oriented, were not as execution oriented, were much less experienced than the immediate 2 years Cavs marchers were, one is compelled by the application of simple logic and intelligence alone to conclude how much the overarching effect of the adult created Show Design was for the 5 placement plunge in one year by the Cavs. I could use many other examples to prove this point, but this alone should suffice to prove the point, imo. Show Design is so important, that its absence compared to other Corps tends to drive down the Brass Scores and Percussion scores of the Corps with sub par created Show Designs. For historical context, we once had a Corps win Percussion in the Semi's BITD out of 2 dozen Corps in those Semi's ( late 70"s ), but that entire Percussion section all watched the Finals from the stands with all the other fans, as that Corps itself failed to make the Finals Top 12. That would literally be impossible today under today's judging sheets, as Show Design takes center stage and where the predominant points are to be had now for these Corps.

Edited June 25, 2015 by BRASSO

[HornTeacher]

Screw it all...may the best 12 corps be finalists.

Edited June 25, 2015 by HornTeacher

[Ghost]

1. Show Design ( adults created ) has far more points that can be had on today's judging sheets than execution ( marchers driven ).

2. Exhibit A we can use to prove this point are The Cavaliers from 2010- 2012. Cavs medaled in both '10-11, but plummeted 5 spots to 8th in 2012. Unless one believes that the 2012 Cavs members were not as talented, were not as hardworking, were not as smart, were not as motivated, were not as team oriented, were not as execution oriented, were much less experienced than the immediate 2 years Cavs marchers were, one is compelled by the application of simple logic and intelligence to conclude how much overarching effect the adult created Show Design was for the 5 placement plunge in one year by the Cavs. I could use many other examples to prove this point, but this alone should suffice to prove the point, imo.

1. Probably right

2. We've read this from you before B.

[BRASSO]

1. Probably right

2. We've read this from you before B.

As Yogi Berra said... " it was deja vu all over again "... huh ?