Green Fleurdelis Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well I guess that means Jersey Surf is royally screwed this season, since their first show isn't until July 2. The other side of the coin is that they'll see a huge jump in score between July 1 and championship week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I get what you're saying. Cavies 2012 with presumably very talented members coming out of many strong years, should have scored ie: 9.0/9.7 at the end of the year in a caption basically overperforming a mediocre design but you don't see those numbers, you saw 9.0/9.0 or something in that range. Often it's not about the corps judged or even if show is better or not from a different year. Factors also include other corps. Just because one has the same talent, or staff or not doesnt mean maintaining or progressing. It does not mean other dont get better . Many corps have surges in talent or staff and the corps is much better and they drop or stay the same because others around them dont sit still either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well I guess that means Jersey Surf is royally screwed this season, since their first show isn't until July 2. Well, that depends on many things. I do remember a pretty famous WC corps who for decades did not make finals because they took their time and often was still learning their show July 4th week and so no urgency. well when they finally got smart and started earlier like others did , got good reading early BAM...finals! Starting late could mean ( or not for some ) always catching up.. But a corps has to do what works for them and that consists of alot of variables and priorities . One has to decide for themselves. No right or wrong if it works for an individual corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumbargleeful Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Well, that depends on many things. I do remember a pretty famous WC corps who for decades did not make finals because they took their time and often was still learning their show July 4th week and so no urgency. well when they finally got smart and started earlier like others did , got good reading early BAM...finals! Starting late could mean ( or not for some ) always catching up.. But a corps has to do what works for them and that consists of alot of variables and priorities . One has to decide for themselves. No right or wrong if it works for an individual corps. The unfortunate scenario that also plays out for OC and Cascades. Despite their step ups in staff, personnel, and money handling, they are a byproduct of a later school year and lots of high school kids. They have to push everything back, then in doing so, are farther behind. Then they have to run out a long ways to start their tour, or wait for tour to come to them. They effectively start later, miss more, and never really have a chance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) I get what you're saying. Cavies 2012 with presumably very talented members coming out of many strong years, should have scored ie: 9.0/9.7 at the end of the year in a caption basically overperforming a mediocre design but you don't see those numbers, you saw 9.0/9.0 or something in that range. Exactly. And taking this one step further... if the execution numbers were as good as they were in 2010-2011 in these execution captions, would it really help the Show Design, that by comparison was flawed ? No. A well executed show can not save a poorly designed show. But a well crafted, creative show design can minimize the effects of a comparatively weaker executing Corps performance. If we eliminated ALL the props and machines from both the Cadets show and the Bluecoats show from last season, would the Blouecoats have prevailed over the Cadets last season ? I doubt it. It is generally the Show Design where the points can be had when we are comparing Corps of somewhat equal marcher talent and execution levels. As a result, if we want to get an insight where some Corps might move up come August, and which ones probably won't by comparison, look at the GE captions, more so than the performance execution captions. As such, I could tell that Cadets had a chance to win it all in 2011, they had the Show Design( and same with Crown in 2013) as they had the off season Show Design crafted by the Adults to do so, if the marchers fulfilled their end of the bargain. Crown had just a soso percussion section in 2013. But it did not matter. They had the Show Design to make it happen for them. Last season's percussion section was just as good, if not better, than their Championship season of 2013. But it did not matter. They were bound to suffer placement slide of several placements as the Theme was convoluted, disjointed, and had flaws in Design that its Championship Show Design of 2013 , by contrast, did not have. The marchers of Crown had no chance at all, imo to win it all last season, no matter how well they executed that show. But Crown's show in 2013, did give them that chance. Edited June 26, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAZZER Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 The unfortunate scenario that also plays out for OC and Cascades. Despite their step ups in staff, personnel, and money handling, they are a byproduct of a later school year and lots of high school kids. They have to push everything back, then in doing so, are farther behind. Then they have to run out a long ways to start their tour, or wait for tour to come to them. They effectively start later, miss more, and never really have a chance. This kinda interests me, so I looked at 2014 "spreads" between a medal contender, mid-pack leader, finals contender, and semi-finalist contender corps a.k.a SCV, BK, Bones, OC during a 6 show run together. Very much anticipating OC's debut to the fray this year. And yes, I've looked at 2015 score "spreads" thus far hoping to make some observations...........Anyone have thoughts about the Bones to OC relationship this year compared to 2014?? Both have my attention for what they are doing and have done in preparation for a successful 2015 campaign!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumbargleeful Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 This kinda interests me, so I looked at 2014 "spreads" between a medal contender, mid-pack leader, finals contender, and semi-finalist contender corps a.k.a SCV, BK, Bones, OC during a 6 show run together. Very much anticipating OC's debut to the fray this year. And yes, I've looked at 2015 score "spreads" thus far hoping to make some observations...........Anyone have thoughts about the Bones to OC relationship this year compared to 2014?? Both have my attention for what they are doing and have done in preparation for a successful 2015 campaign!!!! Share your results with us!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) . Many corps have surges in talent or staff and the corps is much better and they drop or stay the same because others around them dont sit still either Since we are talking here about the Cavaliers from 2010-2013, there is no evidence whatsoever that 5 Corps from 2012 to 2013 got better staff, better marchers, than did the Cavaliers in a 12 month period from 2011 to 2012. There is every indication from the Cavs themselves that from 2011 to 2012 they had strong retention, and solid recruitment. There is no evidence at all that the Cavs suffered a " drop " in marcher talent from 2011 to 2012. That was a veteran Cavs Corps in 2012. The marchers in Cavs did not " sit still ". They worked hard and smart.... as the Corps did when it medaled in 2010, 2011. What changed was the Show Design. They lost Michael Gaines... their principal Show Designer. The Cavs 2012 marchers could have performed their show given to them as well as the Cavs marchers did in 2010, 2011. But it would not have mattered. It is simply ridiculous to self delude oneself that the Cavs Corps of 2012 was not about to suffer severe placement slide, no matter how hard the marchers worked at perfecting their craft of playing and marching and dancing and spinning. To the Cavs credit, in succeeding years they have rebounded quite nicely, as their Show Designs have markedly improved from that of 2012. Are the Cavs of this season markedly better in talent pool than the talent pool they had in 2012 ? Harder working ? I doubt it. And so long as the Blue Devils continue to write Show Designs that are a cut above the rest, there is the expectation that this staff will continue to have BD medaling each and every year, even if half or more of the Corps leaves after each season and needs to be replaced. Bottom line... Corps can replace 75 members each and every season and do well. But if the Blue Devils found their staff in another Corps in 2016, you can bet your life BD would suffer placement slide, even if they went out with every single marcher they have here in 2015 for 2016.... Even if BD had100% retention of all age eligible marchers, with no turnover, BD would fall out of the top 3 or top 5 if they lost 3 or 4 adults that design their shows these days. The fact that you can't seemingly grasp this dynamic, is just unfortunate for you, thats all. Edited June 26, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Since we are talking here about the Cavaliers from 2010-2013, there is no evidence whatsoever that 5 Corps from 2012 to 2013 got better staff, better marchers, than did the Cavaliers in a 12 month period from 2011 to 2012. There is every indication from the Cavs themselves that from 2011 to 2012 they had strong retention, and solid recruitment. There is no evidence at all that the Cavs suffered a " drop " in marcher talent from 2011 to 2012. That was a veteran Cavs Corps in 2012. The marchers in Cavs did not " sit still ". They worked hard and smart.... as the Corps did when it medaled in 2010, 2011. What changed was the Show Design. They lost Michael Gaines... their principal Show Designer. The Cavs 2012 marchers could have performed their show given to them as well as the Cavs marchers did in 2010, 2011. But it would not have mattered. It is simply ridiculous to self delude oneself that the Cavs Corps of 2012 was not about to suffer severe placement slide, no matter how hard the marchers worked at perfecting their craft of playing and marching and dancing and spinning. To the Cavs credit, in succeeding years they have rebounded quite nicely, as their Show Designs have markedly improved from that of 2012. Are the Cavs of this season markedly better in talent pool than the talent pool they had in 2012 ? Harder working ? I doubt it. And so long as the Blue Devils continue to write Show Designs that are a cut above the rest, there is the expectation that this staff will continue to have BD medaling each and every year, even if half or more of the Corps leaves after each season and needs to be replaced. Bottom line... Corps can replace 75 members each and every season and do well. But if the Blue Devils found their staff in another Corps in 2016, you can bet your life BD would suffer placement slide, even if they went out with every single marcher they have here in 2015 for 2016.... Even if BD had100% retention of all age eligible marchers, with no turnover, BD would fall out of the top 3 or top 5 if they lost 3 or 4 adults that design their shows these days. The fact that just a couple of people here ( like you, for example ) can't grasp this dynamic, is just unfortunate for them, thats all. There is no doubt how staff and others play a big part ...AND? Yes corps can replace 75 members, and? Is it the same type members? Next. I was not talking about Cavaliers , just in general You assume alot as if even the same corps members were taught the same or were the same type member. If you have evidence to back up what you are saying,and how members worked and didnt ( not hear say please ) I'm all ears. I will be veryyyyy interested to know your take on it. To take it in your direction, Yes staff will play a huge part, no argument there at all. remember many today go to a corps for staff also, Noone also said Cavies " SAT STILL" if you payed attention, and you dont I said other corps dont sit still either. Now that would mean one can continue to grow but so do others. Get it? One more think Brasso. If you can not respond to a post like an adult without an insult ( especially to those who live this activity every year ) like your last line, like you love to do ,DONT RESPOND AND BAIT, Sorry maybe those of us still actively involved dont have the GRASP as you claim I guess you do. Please educate, that will be quite amusing Dan Edited June 26, 2015 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlejaw Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I get what you're saying. Cavies 2012 with presumably very talented members coming out of many strong years, should have scored ie: 9.0/9.7 at the end of the year in a caption basically overperforming a mediocre design but you don't see those numbers, you saw 9.0/9.0 or something in that range. Knowing the membership of the 2012 Cavaliers, they are the most talented I have seen the corps since the early 2000s. But because the show design was so low the execution got pulled down greatly. Case in point 2013 Cavaliers, less execution more GE = higher score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.