Jeff Ream Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 What about Jeff Ream's accusation of poor numbers management (in same thread and then restated in his post about the DCA Clifton show in the DCA forum)??? isn't it? If you are creating a situation where in the first week of July you have sub box ties because you didn't leave yourself room, that's bad. I understand at prelims with 40 groups, you may run out of numbers, or even finals at the top you could have a few. But in July, you're telling me that in performer for GE1, Crown and BD are both an 80? In GE2 Cadets and crown are both performing at 82? now I don't know what the performance order was, i'm guessing cadets went on last.....there are some num,bers left in the GE captions to unbreak those ties, and DCi judges can go back and adjust. Music ensemble also had a sub box tie in book, and if cadets went on last, it looks his option was Cadets either first or third, or tied for second which they did. I realize the bottom line number means the most, but how you arrive there says an awful lot. and what we're seeing here in 3 cases is the judges think these corps are dead even in sub captions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Not necessarily. A good percussion judge knows a 19.9 when they hear it/see it. If SCV hit that level, they would get credit. After all, BD, Cadets, Coats, and others could score lower, or if equally amazing could tie. And, of course, you do leave that one extra tenth for a perfect 20 just in case someone really NAILS their book. But by the end of the season these judges know how these lines are performing, what they are capable of, etc. Clearly they will evaluate the corps' performance (in this case percussion) on what they do that day. So if someone does hit that 19.9, great...I believe they will award it. There is also the chance that a leading group, perhaps one that has been high in percussion all summer, lays down a stinker. I've seen judges on many occasions give a much lower score for such a reason. And often when that happens many on DCP cry foul about that because corps X has been scoring higher. This is not, in fact, how percussion judges behaved in 2010 when the best line performed 6th from the end. The gutsy-est judge was Ulicny at Semis, who gave them a 19.7 (meaning at most 3 of the remaining 5 corps could have beaten them). The other championship-week judges left themselves more room. I don't believe you'll see anything different in 2015 if Vanguard wins drums from 5th place. No judge is going to give them a 19.9 when Cadets, Bluecoats and BD haven't yet performed. The bottom line is that the judge's first responsibility is to rank the corps correctly. If she thinks Bluecoats have a better performance than Vanguard, she must give them a higher number. Not a tie because she ran out of tenths. DCI smallest score difference is 0.1, so that means that judges have to lower earlier scores to keep space for later ones. I know some circuits have experimented with letting the judge go to 0.01, and I think that could be a good move in DCI given how close the top groups in each caption usually are. In our example here, the judge could happily give SCV 19.90 in 5th place, because she could still give Bluecoats 19.92, BD 19.93 and Cadets 19.95 if they all turn out to be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancidrolla Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Did the finals judges drop scores for 4th-12th to give Phantom the bump they needed? I can't figure out any other reason for 9 corps to drop 1.5-4+ points in one night (definitely in August). I was thinking about it the other day and figured this thread might be a good place for my question. Semis Blue Devils 96.900 Cadets of Bergen County 96.600 Phantom Regiment 95.500 Cavaliers 95.000 Santa Clara Vanguard 94.000 Madison Scouts 93.100 Crossmen 89.000 Magic of Orlando 88.400 Bluecoats 88.100 Colts 86.500 Carolina Crown 85.800 Blue Knights 84.60 Finals Blue Devils 97.400 Phantom Regiment 97.400 Cadets of Bergen County 96.900 Cavaliers 93.800 Santa Clara Vanguard 92.300 Madison Scouts 91.500 Bluecoats 86.300 Crossmen 85.500 Magic of Orlando 85.500 Carolina Crown 82.100 Colts 81.300 Blue Knights 80.700 Edited July 9, 2015 by rancidrolla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 This is not, in fact, how percussion judges behaved in 2010 when the best line performed 6th from the end. The gutsy-est judge was Ulicny at Semis, who gave them a 19.7 (meaning at most 3 of the remaining 5 corps could have beaten them). The other championship-week judges left themselves more room. I don't believe you'll see anything different in 2015 if Vanguard wins drums from 5th place. No judge is going to give them a 19.9 when Cadets, Bluecoats and BD haven't yet performed. The bottom line is that the judge's first responsibility is to rank the corps correctly. If she thinks Bluecoats have a better performance than Vanguard, she must give them a higher number. Not a tie because she ran out of tenths. DCI smallest score difference is 0.1, so that means that judges have to lower earlier scores to keep space for later ones. I know some circuits have experimented with letting the judge go to 0.01, and I think that could be a good move in DCI given how close the top groups in each caption usually are. In our example here, the judge could happily give SCV 19.90 in 5th place, because she could still give Bluecoats 19.92, BD 19.93 and Cadets 19.95 if they all turn out to be better. WGI percussion lets the judge go to .05, and man, that system can create an awful lot of room when needed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideways Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 This is not, in fact, how percussion judges behaved in 2010 when the best line performed 6th from the end. The gutsy-est judge was Ulicny at Semis, who gave them a 19.7 (meaning at most 3 of the remaining 5 corps could have beaten them). The other championship-week judges left themselves more room. I don't believe you'll see anything different in 2015 if Vanguard wins drums from 5th place. No judge is going to give them a 19.9 when Cadets, Bluecoats and BD haven't yet performed. I know this example has been used ad nauseum, but Suncoast posted a 9.9 in field brass with 3-4 corps left to perform in 1986. Judge pretty much left room for BD and no one else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I know this example has been used ad nauseum, but Suncoast posted a 9.9 in field brass with 3-4 corps left to perform in 1986. Judge pretty much left room for BD and no one else. Similarly, the drum judge in 1987 gave Garfield their perfect score with SCV still to perform. But are their more recent examples? My impression is that, at least by the time you get to championships, modern DCI judges are pretty careful about numbers management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Similarly, the drum judge in 1987 gave Garfield their perfect score with SCV still to perform. But are their more recent examples? My impression is that, at least by the time you get to championships, modern DCI judges are pretty careful about numbers management. actually BD was left to go as defending champion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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