What makes a show "BOA style" or "bando"?

[GUARDLING]

Actually, the sheets already referred to "engaging the audience" before that change that quotation describes was put in place last year.

(And I can't imagine why Cesario thinks that "entertainment" means different things to different people but everyone will agree about "engagement".)

I dont know about that. Ive seen shows that totally engage but others were bored to death . It still can be very subjective, like most things. Or are we saying the same thing here..engagement or entertainment will always mean different things to different people. Hey maybe we are saying the same thing here..lol

[BRASSO]

I think its always mattered maybe just not in the way some judges or audience members liked or to what degree.

No, thats simply factually untrue. And we can actually prove it. ( or could ). Fan Network used to have in their archives a retrievable interview from the 1970's by DCI with the judge that single handedly wrote the General Effect ( GE ) captions for DCI. These GE captions essentially remained unaltered in both structure, criteria, instructions for judges until just a few years ago. The man who wrote the GE captions is George Oliviero. A good man. A non biased, capable judge. ( still judges DCI shows today ) He was entrusted by DCI of writing the GE captions. While he did consult with others in a collaborative way, and did utilize some of their ideas, he essentially wrote the GE captions all by himself, then submitted it to DCI for vote, and it was passed.

How did Judge Oliviero ( who was age 27 at the time) describe the audience influence on the GE captions that he wrote ? He described it in very unmistakeable terms. He said on the inteview tape, that he judged GE, ( his words ), " by how the show impacted me, and me alone . I ( George ) can not decipher how anyone else is impacted, so I don't try and think abut the unknowable. I judge GE by how it reaches me, and I wrote the GE captions in such a way, that the Judges look to how it effects them, not the audience, as thats not what we want the GE judges to be doing "

So there it is. In clear, and unambiguous terms. From the very words of the very man that wrote the GE Captions and then told everyone very clearly that the audience was a non factor in the GE captions. ( the GE captions were rewritten a short time ago in which the audience is somehow now supposed to be given some undefined " consideration " in the GE captions ). So in a nutshell thats the GE captions then, and what it is supposedly now regarding... " the audience ".

Edited July 24, 2015 by BRASSO

[cadet93]

Interesting thought...I think influence goes both ways. The same designers and instructors are the key figures in both activities.

[N.E. Brigand]

To me it interestingly comes down to what degree the design of show has been impacted by WGI design philosophy. For whatever reason, in both BOA and DCI, WGI seems to be the organization contributing to "overly thematic" shows, in which the music and drill are merely a prop to support the theme, as opposed to a more traditional DCI-style design where it's the other way around. Look no further than the contrast between the Cadets and Blue Stars shows this year.

But which is which? I think you mean that Blue Stars is the BOA/WGI-style show, but the Cadets' theme of "10" has been the subject of much discussion here. It certainly affects many aspects of Cadets' show, including even the color of the sideline panels and guard uniforms for the first half of the season: Hopkins has specifically acknowledged that the autumnal colors were meant to evoke October, the tenth month.

[GUARDLING]

No, thats simply factually untrue. And we can actually prove it. ( or could ). Fan Network used to have in their archives a retrievable interview from the 1970's by DCI with the judge that single handedly wrote the General Effect ( GE ) captions for DCI. These GE captions essentially remained unaltered in both structure, criteria, instructions for judges until just a few years ago. The man who wrote the GE captions is George Oliviero. A good man. A non biased, capable judge. ( still judges DCI shows today ) He was entrusted by DCI of writing the GE captions. While he did consult with others in a collaborative way, and did utilize some of their ideas, he essentially wrote the GE captions all by himself, then submitted it to DCI for vote, and it was passed.

How did Judge Oliviero ( who was age 27 at the time) describe the audience influence on the GE captions that he wrote ? He described it in very unmistakeable terms. He said on the inteview tape, that he judged GE, ( his words ), " by how the show impacted me, and me alone . I ( George ) can not decipher how anyone else is impacted, so I don't try and think abut the unknowable. I judge GE by how it reaches me, and I wrote the GE captions in such a way, that the Judges look to how it effects them, not the audience, as thats not what we want the GE judges to be doing "

So there it is. In clear, and unambiguous terms. From the very words of the very man that wrote the GE Captions and then told everyone very clearly that the audience was a non factor in the GE captions. ( the GE captions were rewritten a short time ago in which the audience is somehow now supposed to be given some undefined " consideration " in the GE captions ). So in a nutshell thats the GE captions then, and what it is supposedly now regarding... " the audience ".

Doesnt matter what is written yet how it is interpreted .Nothing is ever that clear PLUS just like Michael C views. Is every judge doing the same or feel the same or affected the same? You are also looking at it from only one perspective. did or do designers take into account an audience? I say for many yes, Again to what degree is debatable. Ive been on all sides of this and without a doubt nothing is ever that cut and dry.

As far as George, I have had many conversations with him about this from the old days in the Boston area to teaching out in Cali. where he was judging alot,. reaching him he also could mean as if he was an audience member , just like the MC view as i have heard him say many times through the years. With that said reading between the lines so to speak his view as far as not knowing what an audience thinks or feels could still hold true to some degree today even with the MC view. One has to take into account the audience and make a rational decision. So many things can factor into an audience from one night to the next and audience reaction doesnt have to mean the better corps. So here we are a few words different, a slightly different focus but generally in the same place ( maybe just a broader look )

I have found often , depending on where one sits within the activity can make ones views very different from another ( which is fine ) nice to know all sides. Thats my take on it from my experiences with the system as well as the individuals.

Edited July 24, 2015 by GUARDLING

[GUARDLING]

Interesting thought...I think influence goes both ways. The same designers and instructors are the key figures in both activities.

This is very true

I often wonder and have had this conversation with many over the years and sometimes comes up during the initial planning process in programming . Has the audience changed also and in the different arenas like DCI, BOA , WGI are they different. Now I do not mean different from each other but different from the past or even from year to year.

I have heard the argument that at one time people came to these activities ( maybe to see their kids ) as spectators, to watch a competition. Maybe being entertained was just a by product of that competition, Now do people come to be entertained 1st and the competition a by product. This can make one view the activity very differently.

There are many extremely qualified people in the BOA and WGI arenas who may feel one way BUT are audience members there for different reason than lets say the DCI audience and do designers think about that in terms of competition verses entertainment. Not saying one is exclusive of the other or that it has to be.

This ( as per the topic ) can certainly be looked at with differences from one venue to another.

I have gone into to audience from time to time just to observe in all these arenas and I can tell you it can be quite different and sometimes amusing but always educational.

Edited July 24, 2015 by GUARDLING

[N.E. Brigand]

But which is which? I think you mean that Blue Stars is the BOA/WGI-style show, but the Cadets' theme of "10" has been the subject of much discussion here. It certainly affects many aspects of Cadets' show, including even the color of the sideline panels and guard uniforms for the first half of the season: Hopkins has specifically acknowledged that the autumnal colors were meant to evoke October, the tenth month.

Seriously, for anyone: is Blue Stars' show more like BOA than Cadets' show? Why or why not?

[N.E. Brigand]

I often wonder, and have had this conversation with many over the years, and it sometimes comes up during the initial planning process in programming. Has the audience changed, also, and in the different arenas like DCI, BOA, and WGI, are they different? Now, I do not mean different from each other, but different from the past or even from year to year.

I have heard the argument that at one time, people came to these activities (maybe to see their kids) as spectators, to watch a competition. Maybe being entertained was just a by-product of that competition. Now, do people come to be entertained first and the competition is a by-product? This can make one view the activity very differently.

There are many extremely qualified people in the BOA and WGI arenas who may feel one way, BUT are audience members there for different reason than, let's say, the DCI audience, and do designers think about that in terms of competition verses entertainment? Not saying one is exclusive of the other or that it has to be.

This (as per the topic) can certainly be looked at with differences from one venue to another.

I have gone into to audience from time to time just to observe in all these arenas, and I can tell you, it can be quite different and sometimes amusing but always educational.

Some excellent points in there.