shofmon88 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, corpsband said: Sure there were horn lines that played in tune on G's. I don't think I've ever said otherwise. Some teams had it all figured out. The point is... Did you hear more horn lines play in tune on G bugles or Bb's ? (answer is bloody obvious) But is that due to the switch to Bb/F, or due to a change in the way lines are instructed? The Internet is a powerful tool, and the ability for smaller groups to get better instruction has undoubtedly increased. I'm inclined to say that it's a mix of the two, horns that are easier to play in tune combined with advances in instruction that started to occur at the same time. I would venture to say that the quality of instruction at most corps would now be able to overcome the limitations of G bugles, and if every corps had to switch to G for the next season, you would still have more lines in tune now than you did in the past. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 TL;DR, correlation does not equal causation, and there is most likely more than the switch to Bb/F that explains more lines playing in tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, shofmon88 said: But is that due to the switch to Bb/F, or due to a change in the way lines are instructed? The Internet is a powerful tool, and the ability for smaller groups to get better instruction has undoubtedly increased. I'm inclined to say that it's a mix of the two, horns that are easier to play in tune combined with advances in instruction that started to occur at the same time. I would venture to say that the quality of instruction at most corps would now be able to overcome the limitations of G bugles, and if every corps had to switch to G for the next season, you would still have more lines in tune now than you did in the past. Not sure the internet had anything to do with it. Today -- yes -- there are tools that weren't available. But they weren't available when the switch occurred. "Easier to play in tune" has made a tremendous difference (along with higher quality control and student's familiarity with the instruments) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Just now, corpsband said: Not sure the internet had anything to do with it. Today -- yes -- there are tools that weren't available. But they weren't available when the switch occurred. "Easier to play in tune" has made a tremendous difference (along with higher quality control and student's familiarity with the instruments) The internet facilitates communication. Instructors can keep in touch with their brass line in the off season or between camps. They can look up effective teaching strategies. There's webinars, music theory information, expert advice.... The influence of our connected world can not be ignored. As as far as quality control, are you saying that Kanstul, the last manufacturer of G bugles, which is renowned for the quality of their instruments, doesn't qualify control their hand-made bugles? That's an absurd notion. The bugles available today are a far cry from the chrome plated atrocities in the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, shofmon88 said: The internet facilitates communication. Instructors can keep in touch with their brass line in the off season or between camps. They can look up effective teaching strategies. There's webinars, music theory information, expert advice.... The influence of our connected world can not be ignored. As as far as quality control, are you saying that Kanstul, the last manufacturer of G bugles, which is renowned for the quality of their instruments, doesn't qualify control their hand-made bugles? That's an absurd notion. The bugles available today are a far cry from the chrome plated atrocities in the 70s. Do you know when the switch happened? Internet was NOT a factor in the switch or the initial improvement. I agree about the impact TODAY. But that has nothing to do with the era when the switch occurred. And things like smart music are VERY recent developments. You're confused about quality control. It doesn't mean "producing the highest quality" anything. Consistency is what I talked about. Yamaha (and ilk) produces products that are identical horn to horn. Kanstul's still have far more variation horn-to-horn. It's an extremely low volume operation. Edited January 18, 2017 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 34 minutes ago, corpsband said: Not sure the internet had anything to do with it. Today -- yes -- there are tools that weren't available. But they weren't available when the switch occurred. "Easier to play in tune" has made a tremendous difference (along with higher quality control and student's familiarity with the instruments) This is a specious argument...are you a horn player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, Liahona said: This is a specious argument...are you a horn player? Specious? So it sounds reasonable but it's false? Exactly what is false about it? (and not that it matters but yeah i played baritone in corps and brass ensemble, tuba in MB, bari sax in jazz band.. in fact my very first horn was a v/r olds baritone). BUT whether or not im a horn player is irrelevant to this thread. CLEARLY Bb lines play more in tune. Doesn't take any special knowledge to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 40 minutes ago, corpsband said: Do you know when the switch happened? Internet was NOT a factor in the switch or the initial improvement. I agree about the impact TODAY. But that has nothing to do with the era when the switch occurred. And things like smart music are VERY recent developments. You're confused about quality control. It doesn't mean "producing the highest quality" anything. Consistency is what I talked about. Yamaha (and ilk) produces products that are identical horn to horn. Kanstul's still have far more variation horn-to-horn. It's an extremely low volume operation. That isn't really quality control, that's consistency. There's the occasional Yamaha horn with a bad valve, or a dodgy spring, or what have you. THAT is quality control. Producing an instrument that sounds the same one from the next is consistency. Precision. I'm also not arguing that the initial switch to Bb/F was due to teaching methods or the Internet (it was due to financial incentives) or that Bb/F lines aren't inherently more in tune. I'm arguing that there's more to the picture than just the Bb/F switch for more groups, and those of lower placement, playing with better intonation. This is a recent phenomenon; a decade after the initial switch is when things started to arguably be noticeably better for lower placing groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 14 minutes ago, corpsband said: Specious? So it sounds reasonable but it's false? Exactly what is false about it? (and not that it matters but yeah i played baritone in corps and brass ensemble, tuba in MB, bari sax in jazz band.. in fact my very first horn was a v/r olds baritone). BUT whether or not im a horn player is irrelevant to this thread. CLEARLY Bb lines play more in tune. Doesn't take any special knowledge to hear it. YES! This conversation is supposed to be about B-flat sopranos...not G bugles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Liahona said: YES! This conversation is supposed to be about B-flat sopranos...not G bugles... So, Bb sopranos. I'd love to see a 2 valve Bb soprano, just because. It would be freer blowing, right? Perfect for a lead player who never needs the 3rd valve anyway. That would be a weird instrument, and I love weird instruments. Edited January 19, 2017 by shofmon88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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