Brass Ensemble Amplification

[MGCpimpOtimp]

16 minutes ago, DAvery said:

Who judges the sound coming out of the speakers? 

the judges that are in the box, MA and GE

[Jeff Ream]

5 hours ago, DAvery said:

So you saying the brass judge somehow ignores the amplified brass coming out of the speakers? Are they required to stand on the opposite side as the speakers? Do they then not judge soloists that are mic-ed? I am trying to envision a place during a performance where someone could stand to NOT hear the speakers. Even watching the performance from the back sidelines, you can hear the audio coming from the speakers. 

I understand they do not consider all the audio coming from the speakers in determining scores. I believe they can do this, they just currently do not. My question is why? 

And would still everyone's answer to the 2 questions I posed earlier.

Question one: Can the brass judge distinguish which ensembles are mic-ing select players? While full field mic's are obvious, is this more recent phenomenon of the full time mic-ing select players within the ensemble even detectable? 

I would think a judge could distinguish if an ensemble was mic-ing 20 players in the ensemble, if they listen to the audio from the speaker and compare it to the acoustic sound. If they can't, then question 2 is pointless.

Question two:. If there are two brass ensembles that are performing at the same level and one is mic-ed, who should be rewarded with a higher score? 

generally speaking the field judges are behind the amps....so they focus on what they hear from the performers themselves. the amps push sound forward, not backward. i am sure they can see who is mic'd if the mics are easy to see. but thats not their sheet. so if they see it or not, it doesn't factor into what they are judging. 

the sounds coming from the amps are all for MA and GE. and up there they can probably tell who is amping brass players, but again, given the nature of the sheets, that's not something for them to get wrapped up in.

[DAvery]

9 hours ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

the judges that are in the box, MA and GE

So you are saying when a brass ensemble is playing at full volume and there is a trumpet solo being mic-ed over it, the brass judges does not judge the solo, because without the mic the solo would not be heard? 

[DAvery]

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

generally speaking the field judges are behind the amps....so they focus on what they hear from the performers themselves. the amps push sound forward, not backward. i am sure they can see who is mic'd if the mics are easy to see. but thats not their sheet. so if they see it or not, it doesn't factor into what they are judging. 

the sounds coming from the amps are all for MA and GE. and up there they can probably tell who is amping brass players, but again, given the nature of the sheets, that's not something for them to get wrapped up in.

Anyone have a link to the sheets? 

[ecamburn]

Bluecoats 22 sound guy. Discussion of brass amplification at 2:23

 

 

[wilme861]

2 hours ago, DAvery said:

So you are saying when a brass ensemble is playing at full volume and there is a trumpet solo being mic-ed over it, the brass judges does not judge the solo, because without the mic the solo would not be heard? 

It has NOTHING to do with the mic, it has everything to do with the fact that a brass judge will almost always go to the ensemble over a solo if they have to choose. Ideally the brass judge catches both but if the soloist is up front on side 1 and the rest of the brass are side 2, you can bet a lot of money on the judge being on side 2 with the ensemble.

[DAvery]

4 hours ago, wilme861 said:

It has NOTHING to do with the mic, it has everything to do with the fact that a brass judge will almost always go to the ensemble over a solo if they have to choose. Ideally the brass judge catches both but if the soloist is up front on side 1 and the rest of the brass are side 2, you can bet a lot of money on the judge being on side 2 with the ensemble.

But what if the only way the soloist can be heard is through the speaker? Does the brass judge not include that in their score? I find it virtually impossible for the brass judge to not hear any amplified brass sounds during a performance and to not consider that in the score.  

[Jeff Ream]

2 hours ago, DAvery said:

But what if the only way the soloist can be heard is through the speaker? Does the brass judge not include that in their score? I find it virtually impossible for the brass judge to not hear any amplified brass sounds during a performance and to not consider that in the score.  

If the judge can hear it from the field they’ll comment. A solo can’t be played where you only hear it through the amp 

[DAvery]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

A solo can’t be played where you only hear it through the amp 

Really? I can think of several scenarios where that could happen. The judge is on side 2, the brass ensemble is on side 2 and playing a FFF. The soloist is on side 1. Do you really think the brass judge could hear the acoustic sound of the soloist and not the amped sound? 

And I am still trying to determine IF the brass judges can distinguish between the acoustic and amped sound from the brass ensemble? If they cannot, this is a mute point. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by DAvery

[Sh0uldN0t]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:06 PM, TOC said:

When SCV had 12 of their 1st chair brass micked a few years back, they only played for about 4 minutes.  They spent a lot of time moving props.  The post season go pro videos are an eye opener for me.

Except that the small, mic'd group played the most demanding bits. The larger, un-mic'd group played only half and whole notes by comparison*.

In a judging system where achievement scores, how do you credit the entire ensemble when only part of it is achieving? And for those who argue that the brass judge is behind the amp, can you possibly claim that this imbalance was properly evaluated if the judges couldn't hear what was coming from the amps?

 

*An exaggeration to emphasize the point - though not one that's all that far from the truth.