Let's Talk About the Blue Devils...

[MarimbaManiac]

90% of what this person "responded to" were strawman arguments that I feel no one is really making, or he missed the entire point completely.

• No one realistically thinks they're paying the judges, that's just stupid. What is the actual issue, is that judges are primed to reward BD for their execution, without looking at actual content objectively. They are heavily biased by their assumptions (i.e. that BD will have the best product, and anyone else needs to be EXTRAORDINARY to catch up, which will only happen late season). 
• The point about not moving, isn't that they move more or less than other corps, it's that their SIMULTANEOUS DEMAND is not at the level of other corps. Other corps showcase multiple complex skills more often than BD does. 
• Regarding playing the same show over and over: yes, other corps all have their tropes, but the judges rarely if ever call out BD for doing the same tropes, structure, progression, effects, etc. wrapped up in different superficial concepts that only change the surface level aspects from year to year. Conversely, other corps are dinged for that regularly, or are penalized for trying new things year to year. Someone said recently that BD shows evolve gradually over several seasons, so they might have 3-4 years in a row of very similar shows, and this is on purpose. The team fine tunes their concepts and effects from year to year and wraps them in a different concept or musical selection, but the foundation of the show design, progression, musical treatment, etc. is roughly the same year to year. This is NOT the same as Crown pulling out the Crown set at the end of the show, or SCV doing the 'yell' or shield, or whatever at one point in the show. It's baked into the structure of their design, and the judges rarely if ever call them on it. 

Basically, this guy missed the entire point of the criticisms, and is doing what so many other people do which is reduce valid complaints down to people "just being haters," which is ridiculous.

The fact is that BD has a great training structure in place, they attract the best talent, whether from their in house training or from other corps, they know how to write to the sheets, and they know how to clean a show. They are however NOT good at (with rare exception) taking risks, designing for the audience, creating continuous musical through-lines, designing with variety, or stepping out of their comfort zone. 

Until the judging community decides to confront the biased assumptions some of the judges have (look at the last show, winning both percussion and brass by 2 or 4 tenths but losing Music Analysis is NUTS), or adjusting the rubric to reward design and effect more than clarity, I don't see anything changing any time soon. 

I would love to see an experiment where corps were put in neutral uniforms with no staff on the field or other identifying marks, and have the panel judge blindly without knowing who they were scoring. I think it would expose some interesting things. 

 

[DWW11]

6 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

You didn't care for Babylon, you didn't care for Tilt? Do you even like drum corps?

I was going to let this go, but it was insulting, so i figured i would explain.

i loved Bluecoats since many, many years ago when they played Funny Valentine.  Tilt was such as big step away from that, it seemed so unexpected and random to me, and I wasn’t receptive.  
 

And i am not a fan of dystopian stuff, angst, or doom and gloom.  I get enough of that in real life.  Drum corps, to me, is an escape.  I like uplifting, happy, beautiful stuff.  ARTISTIC stuff.  But i can still appreciate what I don’t care for.

maybe i am a BETTER drum corps fan because of that?

[Cappybara]

1 minute ago, MarimbaManiac said:

90% of what this person "responded to" were strawman arguments that I feel no one is really making, or he missed the entire point completely.

• No one realistically thinks they're paying the judges, that's just stupid. What is the actual issue, is that judges are primed to reward BD for their execution, without looking at actual content objectively. They are heavily biased by their assumptions (i.e. that BD will have the best product, and anyone else needs to be EXTRAORDINARY to catch up, which will only happen late season). 
• The point about not moving, isn't that they move more or less than other corps, it's that their SIMULTANEOUS DEMAND is not at the level of other corps. Other corps showcase multiple complex skills more often than BD does. 
• Regarding playing the same show over and over: yes, other corps all have their tropes, but the judges rarely if ever call out BD for doing the same tropes, structure, progression, effects, etc. wrapped up in different superficial concepts that only change the surface level aspects from year to year. Conversely, other corps are dinged for that regularly, or are penalized for trying new things year to year. Someone said recently that BD shows evolve gradually over several seasons, so they might have 3-4 years in a row of very similar shows, and this is on purpose. The team fine tunes their concepts and effects from year to year and wraps them in a different concept or musical selection, but the foundation of the show design, progression, musical treatment, etc. is roughly the same year to year. This is NOT the same as Crown pulling out the Crown set at the end of the show, or SCV doing the 'yell' or shield, or whatever at one point in the show. It's baked into the structure of their design, and the judges rarely if ever call them on it. 

Basically, this guy missed the entire point of the criticisms, and is doing what so many other people do which is reduce valid complaints down to people "just being haters," which is ridiculous.

The fact is that BD has a great training structure in place, they attract the best talent, whether from their in house training or from other corps, they know how to write to the sheets, and they know how to clean a show. They are however NOT good at (with rare exception) taking risks, designing for the audience, creating continuous musical through-lines, designing with variety, or stepping out of their comfort zone. 

Until the judging community decides to confront the biased assumptions some of the judges have (look at the last show, winning both percussion and brass by 2 or 4 tenths but losing Music Analysis is NUTS), or adjusting the rubric to reward design and effect more than clarity, I don't see anything changing any time soon. 

I would love to see an experiment where corps were put in neutral uniforms with no staff on the field or other identifying marks, and have the panel judge blindly without knowing who they were scoring. I think it would expose some interesting things. 

 

I would love to hear in more detail what makes you think that 

1. Judges are rewarding content where there isn’t any

2. Judges are rewarding less simultaneous demand than other corps 

3. Playing similar design concepts year to year is a part of the sheets or something that other corps get dinged for

[TheOneWhoKnows]

3 minutes ago, DWW11 said:

I was going to let this go, but it was insulting, so i figured i would explain.

i loved Bluecoats since many, many years ago when they played Funny Valentine.  Tilt was such as big step away from that, it seemed so unexpected and random to me, and I wasn’t receptive.  
 

And i am not a fan of dystopian stuff, angst, or doom and gloom.  I get enough of that in real life.  Drum corps, to me, is an escape.  I like uplifting, happy, beautiful stuff.  ARTISTIC stuff.  But i can still appreciate what I don’t care for.

maybe i am a BETTER drum corps fan because of that?

My question to you would be, though you aren't a fan, did Babylon deserve to win?

[ContraFart]

3 minutes ago, DWW11 said:

I was going to let this go, but it was insulting, so i figured i would explain.

i loved Bluecoats since many, many years ago when they played Funny Valentine.  Tilt was such as big step away from that, it seemed so unexpected and random to me, and I wasn’t receptive.  
 

And i am not a fan of dystopian stuff, angst, or doom and gloom.  I get enough of that in real life.  Drum corps, to me, is an escape.  I like uplifting, happy, beautiful stuff.  ARTISTIC stuff.  But i can still appreciate what I don’t care for.

maybe i am a BETTER drum corps fan because of that?

It was meant as a funny quip. However it just seems odd that the 2 shows you singled out are the 2 most popular shows of the past 10 years.

[DWW11]

Just now, TheOneWhoKnows said:

My question to you would be, though you aren't a fan, did Babylon deserve to win?

Yes. It should have won. And there were parts of it that i even liked,

[MarimbaManiac]

1 hour ago, ContraFart said:

To those who think I am wrong, let BD get upset on finals night and see how that stadium will go crazy.

Honestly I think we might be getting set up for that. Being only a point up at this point isn't exactly a done deal. 

1 hour ago, ContraFart said:

Bostons design team was at Crown prior for about a dozen years. Changing corps doesn't eliminate your experience. I believe Dean Westman and Doug Thrower have been at Bluecoats since 2002. 

People are putting too much stock in the staff longevity at BD, because the cumulative experience at the top corps is relatively equal. 

Also YES, THIS. It's not the longevity of the team working together. Most of these people work together across multiple activities, and they move from org to org together. It's that BD follows the same design "process" from year to year. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by MarimbaManiac

[Cappybara]

You know, typically when I’m talking with people about my preferences in music in real life and someone tells me they don’t like *insert popular artist here*, my first instinct isn’t to go DO YOU EVEN LIKE MUSIC?? 

[GraysonHarris]

2 minutes ago, TheOneWhoKnows said:

My question to you would be, though you aren't a fan, did Babylon deserve to win?

I know you aren't asking me, but I was not a fan of Babylon. I do though think they deserved to win. 

[DWW11]

3 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

It was meant as a funny quip. However it just seems odd that the 2 shows you singled out are the 2 most popular shows of the past 10 years.

Again, a claim based on YOUR metrics.  I seem to recall unanimous agreement and popularity for Metamorph.  With Ghostlight right behind.