DCI Judging - YT Video by Funliner Productions

[ContraFart]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

Are they though? Ones not looking at upper body while another’s focusing on lower body?

 

you continue to create arguments for the sake of arguments with people trying to help you in good faith and every time your argument is rebutted or countered you shift to a new argument. It’s clear nothing said will ever satisfy you

What about looking at a single person vs a football field do you not understand?

[MarimbaManiac]

9 hours ago, ContraFart said:

I bring up figure skating because it's easier to find objective comparisons. A triple toe loop is a triple toe loop, even with minor variations it's still a relative marker that can be directly compared. Also a judge is not going to miss a jump because he is looking at the opposite side of the rink. No human is perfect, I know that but missing someone fall on side A because you were looking at side B is a hole in the concept.

Drum corps does contain any required technical elements. I am not saying that's a bad thing, I am saying that no 2 corps do the same thing so you can never have a specific apples to apples comparison. 

I say this without any condescension intended (though it always sounds that way), but once you're heavily involved in design and are used to discussing critiques with judges, the objective comparisons become much clearer. 

There are DEFINITELY objective, defined, required skills that these groups are demonstrating, even if they are handled completely differently and wrapped in a a different artistic packaging. 

My background is mostly percussion, so for example:

A front ensemble needs to demonstrate:

• A variety of 4 mallet permutations of various difficulties
• Unison fast run passages with both 2 and 4 mallets
• Rhythmic complexity and ability to groove and/or show polyrhythmic control
• A wide variety of control at different dynamic levels
• A variety of expressions at different dynamic levels and intensities
• Exposed moments the integrate into the rest of the ensemble
• Supportive moments that integrate into the rest of the ensemble.
• Situational awareness of shifting pulse centers. 
• A unified technique on mallets, and also hand percussion/auxilliary

A drumline needs to demonstrate:

• A variety of rhythmic/polyrhythmic control
• The ability to maintain a solid pulse center
• Exposed feature moments from each of the sections
• Musicality and expression with various intensities and dynamic levels
• Simultaneous demand with movement and marching
• A variety of rudiments and techniques that are achieved simultaneously
• The ability to handle challenging listening situations based on field position
   

Judges are expecting to see these things, and if your package doesn't include them, they will bring it up on the tapes or in critique, like:

• Your drumline retains pulse, but is only moving between the 30s and the hashes. 
• Your front ensemble only plays fast massages with two mallets
• There are no exposed snare/bass/tenor moments
• The keyboards are only playing basic 4-mallet double vertical strokes or easy permutations. 
• There are no exposed expressive moments in the battery, they just play loud. 

So yes, there are some objective metrics that the judges are looking for, and when a corps doesn't showcase all of them, there will be a cap on how competitive they can be (for instance a certain top 4 corps has a front ensemble that is NOT hitting all of the required skills, which will likely hold them back this year). 

[Cappybara]

Just now, ContraFart said:

Maybe he knows he is a meme now, who knows? Who cares? 

Considering you are blatantly implying Chumley just hands out 20s with no logical reasoning for the score, I would say he probably cares. As does anyone who believes in the integrity of the judging system. There is no logical reasoning to show why he would do such a thing and him giving BD a 3rd in GE achievement and 2nd in content proves that. 
 

I know you have absolutely 0 respect for DCI judging and its judges, your commenting history over the years has proved as much. Just don’t act all nonchalant and surprised when people call you out on it. I’m looking forward to your next goalpost move or deflection. Jeff Ream was spot on about that. 

[ContraFart]

Just now, Cappybara said:

Considering you are blatantly implying Chumley just hands out 20s with no logical reasoning for the score, I would say he probably cares. As does anyone who believes in the integrity of the judging system. There is no logical reasoning to show why he would do such a thing and him giving BD a 3rd in GE achievement and 2nd in content proves that. 
 

I know you have absolutely 0 respect for DCI judging and its judges, your commenting history over the years has proved as much. Just don’t act all nonchalant and surprised when people call you out on it. I’m looking forward to your next goalpost move or deflection. Jeff Ream was spot on about that. 

Really am I the only one saying that? It was Jeff that got me to notice the Chumley factor in the first place. After a while it became more of a meme and even funny because it triggered BD fans.

[Jeff Ream]

10 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

What logical sense is there for the judge to give “automatic” 20s at finals but not even a first place ordinal at prelims? 

Never said it was automatic but there was a history bearing the accusation out at finals

[ContraFart]

4 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I say this without any condescension intended (though it always sounds that way), but once you're heavily involved in design and are used to discussing critiques with judges, the objective comparisons become much clearer. 

There are DEFINITELY objective, defined, required skills that these groups are demonstrating, even if they are handled completely differently and wrapped in a a different artistic packaging. 

My background is mostly percussion, so for example:

A front ensemble needs to demonstrate:

• A variety of 4 mallet permutations of various difficulties
• Unison fast run passages with both 2 and 4 mallets
• Rhythmic complexity and ability to groove and/or show polyrhythmic control
• A wide variety of control at different dynamic levels
• A variety of expressions at different dynamic levels and intensities
• Exposed moments the integrate into the rest of the ensemble
• Supportive moments that integrate into the rest of the ensemble.
• Situational awareness of shifting pulse centers. 
• A unified technique on mallets, and also hand percussion/auxilliary

A drumline needs to demonstrate:

• A variety of rhythmic/polyrhythmic control
• The ability to maintain a solid pulse center
• Exposed feature moments from each of the sections
• Musicality and expression with various intensities and dynamic levels
• Simultaneous demand with movement and marching
• A variety of rudiments and techniques that are achieved simultaneously
• The ability to handle challenging listening situations based on field position
   

Judges are expecting to see these things, and if your package doesn't include them, they will bring it up on the tapes or in critique, like:

• Your drumline retains pulse, but is only moving between the 30s and the hashes. 
• Your front ensemble only plays fast massages with two mallets
• There are no exposed snare/bass/tenor moments
• The keyboards are only playing basic 4-mallet double vertical strokes or easy permutations. 
• There are no exposed expressive moments in the battery, they just play loud. 

So yes, there are some objective metrics that the judges are looking for, and when a corps doesn't showcase all of them, there will be a cap on how competitive they can be (for instance a certain top 4 corps has a front ensemble that is NOT hitting all of the required skills, which will likely hold them back this year). 

Thank you for that, but here is my question and I think this is at the heart of my issue. What happens when multiple groups display all of those objective criteria at a high level? That is at the point where I believe the subjectivity comes into play.

[Cappybara]

2 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

Really am I the only one saying that? It was Jeff that got me to notice the Chumley factor in the first place. After a while it became more of a meme and even funny because it triggered BD fans.

You weren’t even the person I replied to originally about Chumley, you just inserted yourself in. Why are you surprised now that when I am replying to you, I am directly referring to you? 
 

Seems like you have more of a vested interest in trolling BD fans than acting in good faith

[Jeff Ream]

7 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

What about looking at a single person vs a football field do you not understand?

What about my item? Just because you’re looking at the same person doesn’t mean you’re looking at the same part of the body.

[Cappybara]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

Never said it was automatic but there was a history bearing the accusation out at finals

Sure, and a new data point has been added to dispel the silly accusation. 

[Jeff Ream]

1 minute ago, Cappybara said:

Sure, and a new data point has been added to dispel the silly accusation. 

Prelims was never part of the joke/accusation statistically. Don’t move the goalposts