some old corps photos

[O.P.]

In my opinion the rifles in the 70s were great, and the rifles today are great. Only the criteria have changed.

I love the old pics of ultra clean rifles. There was one in the concord paper of the BD rifle line with their rifles in mid-air that was just perfect, like the Kingsmen photos on this thread. Wish I had a copy.

Anyway, the lines of the seventies tossed a lot lower and caught in fewer ways. The stuff that the members today are doing is amazing. Even at the high school level, you have to throw sevens to be considered good. Plus the movement is light years ahead of what was displayed in the 70s.

Someone else said it earlier - the difference is the tick system. The goal was group perfection before '82. Not anymore.

But, I applaud everyone's right to have a favorite style. Just like I have the right to like it all!

Happy Holidays, everyone!

Here, here, the one, the only, the enigmatic, Sir Random-noise (I salute thee!!) Happy happy too!

[CrunchyTenor]

What happened?

Like Keith said, abolishing the tick system had a direct effect. But, IMO, it was the addition of faster tempos, movement and dance that contributed even more than build-up scoring.

Think about it. Rifle lines in the 70's had one basic discipline, and that was to be perfect at one piece of equipment within limited tempos. If you add additional equipment (and some 70's lines did that, too) and dance, it takes away from the time they used to use to achieve that kind of perfection.

Also, keep in mind that these were heavier rifles. Pretty tough to do a 7 with a 12# rifle...much easier with a 3# or 4# rifle.

It's a different animal these days. I prefer perfection to "close enough."

Garry in Vegas

[MikeD]

An experiment for today's rifle lines:

Try getting a line to spin and toss as perfectly as the Kingsmen rifles as shown above.

Start by having them do today's version of the "mark time", and have them wear dance clothing.

Have them do a high leg lift and keep the perfection.

Put them in a wool uniform and a shako.

Give them a rifle with a strap.

Now add the bolt.

Have them look intense without looking strained.

Hmmmmmmmm. Thought so.

Yep...they would not have a problem doing those things, just as you thought. Todays guards are lightyears ahead of the old days, just as the brass and percussion are.

[bugleboy1048]

where did all the pictures go............

[bkw1962]

I just HAVE to thank you for that post. Being involved in the activity since 1970 (right up to today) and having seen some of the best outdoor (Phantom, SVC, Garfield, 27th) and indoor guards (Phantom, NY Royal Guardsmen, Skylarks) of all time, I have to tell you that you nailed my sentiment exactly. The decline of color guard quality, in the strictest sense of the word, is mind-numbing.

Do NOT get me wrong - I believe dance has a place in the activity - a big place. But this hybriding that has occurred in the last 15-20 years has swung the pendulum so far in the other direction, it is frightening. Today's guard kids have no idea what real precision is like. Show those Anaheim photos to the kids in even the best-ranked guards in the world today and the reaction would be "OH MY GOD. How did they DO that?" Precision itself is entertaining. I don't know why we have lost that element. The fundamentals of equipment work have been put on the back burner (or, in some cases, completely exchanged) for dance techniques. Gone are speed spins, real tosses (and catches). Cleaning has gone by the wayside. How sad...we need a balance to return. What is actually happening is this...instead of making guard a more integrated part of the visual and musical program, it is detracting from it at this point. Soon, guard will have nothing valuable left to see on the field...alot of running and swinging arms and third positions and plies...

I truly wonder what Peggy Twiggs thinks now when she goes to a show - indoor or out. I watched that woman successfully take an iffy guard program at Garfield and, with a talented crew of folks, make them formidable competitively AND artistically - along with making them a seamlessly integrated, ENHANCING part of the program...for 4 straight years. Where is that now?

Just my $0.02...adjusted for inflation, of course.... ;o)

Brian

[A27Lancer]

I truly wonder what Peggy Twiggs thinks now when she goes to a show - indoor or out. I watched that woman successfully take an iffy guard program at Garfield and, with a talented crew of folks, make them formidable competitively AND artistically - along with making them a seamlessly integrated, ENHANCING part of the program...for 4 straight years. Where is that now?

Knowing Peggy, she'd just kind of shrug and say, "Oh, well!"

Peggy always tries to see the good in everybody and everything, and always looked toward positive reinforcement. I'm pretty sure she'd go with the flow of what works today. (Although I can't picture Margaret showing the proper way to Jetee to a color guard member) B)

[greggmanX-Kingsmen]

Yep...they would not have a problem doing those things, just as you thought. Todays guards are lightyears ahead of the old days, just as the brass and percussion are.

"Light-years ahead"???!!! As far as color guards today are concerned, I agree, but only in terms of what they do vs. what guards did in the 70's. However guards today are light-years BEHIND in terms of cleanliness, and cleanliness is next to Godliness. Rifle work today looks like baton work from the baton & drum squads of yesteryear - and just about as "clean".

I'd rather see a triple thrown by 10 rifles with exact rotation, height and caught with a single-clean "WHAP" than 10 rifles throw a quad while doing a ballet move and catching it within a second of each other.

[byline]

Cleaning has gone by the wayside. How sad...we need a balance to return.

Not just cleaning, but technique. In all but the best guards, I see very questionable equipment and dance technique.

Don't get me wrong. I admire what guards are doing today. But I agree with your point that guards have lost a lot of what makes them unique, distinguishable from dance teams. As people have pointed out, they're so distracted by all the things they have to do on the field -- including smile and "emote," which is very different from how performance was defined in my era -- that the inherent cleanliness of what they do, as a unit, is gone. Now even the best guards have a somewhat fuzzy look; it's what we used to call "readable, but not clean" back in the day. "Readable, but not clean" was what we settled for in the early season, not as the final product at the end of the season.

Yes, difficulty is very high, and I commend guards and corps for attempting this kind of difficulty. I guess my problem with it is that word, attempting. That, for me, is not the same as achieving. But I think the standards have changed, and so for most guard people of today, what I'm saying would make no sense.

[Walter]

"Light-years ahead"???!!! As far as color guards today are concerned, I agree, but only in terms of what they do vs. what guards did in the 70's. However guards today are light-years BEHIND in terms of cleanliness, and cleanliness is next to Godliness. Rifle work today looks like baton work from the baton & drum squads of yesteryear - and just about as "clean".

I'd rather see a triple thrown by 10 rifles with exact rotation, height and caught with a single-clean "WHAP" than 10 rifles throw a quad while doing a ballet move and catching it within a second of each other.

Not just cleaning, but technique. In all but the best guards, I see very questionable equipment and dance technique.

Don't get me wrong. I admire what guards are doing today. But I agree with your point that guards have lost a lot of what makes them unique, distinguishable from dance teams. As people have pointed out, they're so distracted by all the things they have to do on the field -- including smile and "emote," which is very different from how performance was defined in my era -- that the inherent cleanliness of what they do, as a unit, is gone. Now even the best guards have a somewhat fuzzy look; it's what we used to call "readable, but not clean" back in the day. "Readable, but not clean" was what we settled for in the early season, not as the final product at the end of the season.

Yes, difficulty is very high, and I commend guards and corps for attempting this kind of difficulty. I guess my problem with it is that word, attempting. That, for me, is not the same as achieving. But I think the standards have changed, and so for most guard people of today, what I'm saying would make no sense.

BRAVO, BRAVO.....AUTHOR AUTHOR !!!!

Right, friggin' ON !!! ^OO^ ^OO^ ^OO^ ^OO^

[IllianaLancerContra]

BRAVO, BRAVO.....AUTHOR AUTHOR !!!!

Right, friggin' ON !!! ^OO^ ^OO^ ^OO^ ^OO^

'Cleanless/execution is a great general effect' or words to that effect someone on DCP said

Go Kingsmen Alumni!!