tired of it all

[^Michael^]

Well, the disdain you seem to show for the current activity makes that request kind of odd. Why should someone from the current generation show respect for people they think are not showing THEM that same level of respect back?

Respect is earned...it's not an automatic "given", IMO. Us oldtimers are not due respect just because we are oldtimers. It's how we treat those who are marching in the current era that counts, IMO again.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Michael Terry

Admitted oldtimer - brain damaged - but not brain dead!

[MikeD]

That's why I suggest that the changes are being pushed through too fast.  Perhaps if the rate of change slowed down, less would feel offended and more would be in the stands as well as supporting.  With all the age-outs each year, attendances should be growing significantly, not minimally.  Obviously, growth is better than decline, but slow down the rate of change so that more people want to stay seems like a good strategy to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not sure what you mean by 'too fast'. It took, what, a dozen years for amps to make it? Hardly call that 'fast'. The last big change was multi-key, for the 2000 season. That's four years between two changes, neither of which altered in one way how a show had to be presented...or added another instrument to the set of legal drum corps instruments. Changes flew by a lot faster than that in the 70's and early 80's, IMO.

Mike

[MiamiSun76]

I remember back in the 70's when the Sunrisers were disparagingly called a 'DCI' corps by some of the older DCA folks, due to the many innovations and types of shows they produced. They were amazing back then, IMO. My guard person (when I was a band director) marched Sun for years.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the people who spent a much longer time there than I, thanks!

Besides, there was always an express lane between Garfield and Hempstead for writers and instructors.

A final note, the "Best junior corps in DCA" title was a source of pride for Sun. That work ethic propelled them to 6 DCA championships, and they're not done yet.

[jwillis35]

This debate rages on. Lete me put it this way:

I do not feel it is right to tell anyone to go or stay, whether it be DCI or DCP. The fact is that those are decisions for each individual to make. But in support of the original poster, I, too, get very tired of the negativity. We all complain from time to time, so I understand that. But some on this board complain all the time. It's never ending. I realize people have the right to complain, just as I have the right to complain about their complaining. It's a cycle that can go on endlessly. It's called arguing, debating, and it can be a good thing. But I have to wonder at what point do those people, who can never find happiness in DCI, decide enough is enough.

We all have the right to voice our opinion, but at some point if we are that pro-active about what we want, and against the system (whatever that may be) then we have to voice those concerns and take action in a manner that is conducive to change. The constant griping on this board will honestly not change much, but it does carry the possibility of upsetting those who happen to enjoy and love drum corps the way it is (count me in on that). I love this activity, and like many of you, I have donated tons of money, purchased CD, DVDs, T Shirts, you name it, and I have given my time. So sure, we have the right to complain, to disagree from time to time, and to propose change, but ultimately if this is what we want then there are better channels and methods of making those positive changes. Just complaining ALL THE TIME for the sake of complaining is not going to get it done. And some of you complain, and complain, and complain. Nothing makes you happy, everything is a conspiracy, DCI judging is fixed, corps are slotted...wow, it is just amazing the stuff you can read on here. Perhaps that is why I like DCP so much, yet what I really enjoy is discussing corps from a positive perspective. I enjoy writing reviews. I enjoy discussing problems in the activity with those who wish to come up with constructive fixes, but what I absolutely HATE, are those that do nothing but complain. I guess that is just me.

So it's not a matter of saying those people should go, but for me it's more a matter of what is keeping you people here? Is your life healthy and happy when you are writing your book of complaints on a daily basis? Are you making any dent in the drum and bugle corps universe? I love how many of you have started your petitions when you have not been happy with certain things. That's the way to do it. Often those things have been discussed in a professional manner. But the truth is that some on here never, ever, seem to be happy...and they bring their unhappiness to everyone else. Right or wrong, it simply becomes difficult to take at times.

Jonathan

[^Michael^]

<much snippage>

But the truth is that some on here never, ever, seem to be happy...and they bring their unhappiness to everyone else.  Right or wrong, it simply becomes difficult to take at times.

Jonathan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very eloquent! And I agree with every word!

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

Not sure what you mean by 'too fast'. It took, what, a dozen years for amps to make it? Hardly call that 'fast'. The last big change was multi-key, for the 2000 season. That's four years between two changes, neither of which altered in one way how a show had to be presented...or added another instrument to the set of legal drum corps instruments. Changes flew by a lot faster than that in the 70's and early 80's, IMO.

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But that's your opinion, Mike. Some feel it is much too fast. Some feel it has altered things. What was the big rule change before B-flats? How long ago was that? During the 80s as drum corps moved away from the bilateral drills up and down the 50, giving birth to the visual designs of today (thank you George Zingali and George Hopkins), drum corps saw it best fan base growth of the DCI era. In the 90s, despite continued talent growth, designs changed and fan-base declined rapidly. In response, DCI basically said, "oh well, forget the legacy fans. Let's predict that the band folks are our future." Then we get B-flats (which I personally had no problem with), amps and narration/singing and much talk about woodwinds. There are changes proposed to encourage this more quickly. Look at how fast the amp change swept through. In less than two years, virtually every top 12 contender is using them...all part of Hopkins' announced vision. Many are not yet comfortable with this and the woodwind talk is hot and heavy. Sure, the proposal to increase corps size failed this time (a measure to accommodate the number of woodwinds needed to balance the brass) but I&E now allows woodwinds. Even if Jeff Fiedler really doesn't want them on the field, you can bet other directors are licking their chops. Already, electronic instruments are being proposed. Change, change, change. Why does it need to go so fast. Would you dislike drum corps if these changes to 3x or 4x longer to implement? I think it would be a lot easier for legacy fans to accept such changes if they occurred more slowly. This would keep the fan base of legacy fans up while still appealing to the younger generation. What's so bad about that?

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

This debate rages on.  Lete me put it this way:

I do not feel it is right to tell anyone to go or stay, whether it be DCI or DCP.  The fact is that those are decisions for each individual to make.  But in support of the original poster, I, too, get very tired of the negativity.  We all complain from time to time, so I understand that.  But some on this board complain all the time.  It's never ending.  I realize people have the right to complain, just as I have the right to complain about their complaining.  It's a cycle that can go on endlessly.  It's called arguing, debating, and it can be a good thing.  But I have to wonder at what point do those people, who can never find happiness in DCI, decide enough is enough.

Perhaps there will be a time when DCI decides that all the negativity about the activity they monopolize is "enough."

We all have the right to voice our opinion, but at some point if we are that pro-active about what we want, and against the system (whatever that may be) then we have to voice those concerns and take action in a manner that is conducive to change.

We have tried activating but DCI does everything it can to quash any attitude contrary to the BoD and ignore any comments that differ.

So it's not a matter of saying those people should go, but for me it's more a matter of what is keeping you people here?

Hope, we still have hope.

Are you making any dent in the drum and bugle corps universe?

We are trying with any way (outside of terrorism or strongarming which we will NOT do) we can think up. Then we get shot down by others as not being for the kids as well as quashed and ignored by the BoD.

I love how many of you have started your petitions when you have not been happy with certain things.  That's the way to do it. Often those things have been discussed in a professional manner.  But the truth is that some on here never, ever, seem to be happy...and they bring their unhappiness to everyone else.  Right or wrong, it simply becomes difficult to take at times.

Jonathan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are many parts of drum corps that do make me happy and I have discussed them before. With the petition, I conducted myself very professionally despite a couple of liars on here who try to say differently. So, you see, I don't just complain, I get active and try. I still have hope, but the line between hope and despair (when I leave as so many have suggested that I do) is very thin now and getting thinner.

[Jeff Ream]

I'd say today's kids sacrifice more than I did to march.  The kid off the street can no longer even consider marching.  Tour fees totalling a state university's semester of education.  I don't know that I could have marched in today's corps...the cost would have been too prohibitive.

And again, you cannot demand respect (although you can try).  Respect is something that is earned.  The vets have earned theirs as well as the current marchers.  The disrespect that vets/legacy fans (amongst younger and current members as well) is toward direction and design.  We have been very clear in saying we respect what the kids do.  The directors and designers are the ones who bring direction to the activity, they are the ones who say "love it or leave it" to us (just ask George Hopkins).  They are the ones I have no respect for because I feel they have no respect for us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree 100%. saying you hate the show design is not a slam on the kids. it's stating your opinion about what the "adults" gave them to work with.

unfortunately, people can't seperate that from bashing a corps saying "they perform like ####"

[felixh]

This post is for the complainers.

I live in Cleveland.  A few years ago the Ku Klux Klan were planning on having a rally in downtown Cleveland.  The entire city was up in arms about it and thousands of people were demanding they be banned from doing so.  The mayor was in a very tough spot.  He realized that he could not ban it because the constitution of the United States of America protects our right to public demonstration.  The rally happened as scheduled.

Is it right to hold a public hate demonstration on city streets just because you have the constitutional right to do so?  I certainly don't think so!  This thread displays a similar situation.  I've seen quite a few posts say "Who are you to tell me to leave?  I have every right to say these things!"  Well you know what?  I never claimed you had no right to complain, and not many other people have either.  After all, there is no rule in the forum guildelines that says complaining about DCI is against the rules.  However, just because you're staying within your rights doesn't mean your relentless negativity hasn't become obnoxious.  If people are telling you to leave, it's because they're sick of hearing it.  And there is no rule in the forum guidelines that states people can't voice that opinion as well.  You have the right to complain all you want.  We are asking you to stop.  Please stop.  It has grown tiresome.

I've also seen people in this thread tell us that we don't have to read these threads if we don't like it.  It would be really nice to think that would work, but this negativity infiltrates threads that have absolutely nothing to do with amps, narration, or any other subject commonly complained about.  There are DCP members with the attitude "IF I'M NOT HAPPY, NOBODY IS HAPPY!!!!"

One thing many of you fail to realize is how insulting you sound to the current DCI generation.  Words cannot describe how proud I am of my two years in DCI, and how proud I am of the members that are on tour right now as we speak.  When I marched (01-02) I knew I was doing something great.  I am so glad I never read these forums back then, because it would have put a huge damper on my pride.  I just assumed people loved what we were doing because of how much we loved what we were doing.  I never knew that so many of the people I idolized from previous generations looked down their nose at us.  We had a saying in the Bluecoats:  "We stand on the shoulders of giants."  This shows our huge respect for those who came before us.  We want you to be proud of us.

I aged out just three years ago.  Even in that short ammount of time there have been some major changes.  My rookie year in 2001 all but four of the top 12 corps had G hornlines.  Now just a few years later we have amped pits and vocals.  I tend to be set in my ways, and those changes did not sit well with me.  But I realized this year that it really didn't change the activity as much as you people moan about on DCP.  Just a few weeks ago I was complaining to my friends that Bb horns sounded thin and quiet.  But when I went to the Massillon show last week they were LOUD!!!!!  They just don't get loud until they get confident towards the end of the season.  But they do get loud!  I saw old ladies covering their ears in pain.  Now THAT'S drum corps!!!  ^0^

There has been a lot of mention about the generation gap.  I can safely say that is mostly caused by you, the older generation.  You are the ones who constantly insult today's corps and even go as far as to say it is not drum corps anymore.  Not drum corps???  How insulting is that?  The thing is, 99% of the generational insults come from the 70s and 80s alumni.  You very rarely hear today's generation bashing the previous decades.  Most of us love old drum corps and are thankful for your hard work to get us where we are today.

I am in my first year of DCA now.  I march with Blue Devils vets from the 70s, Phantom Regiment and 27th Lancer vets from the early 80s, Cavaliers and Star vets from the mid 80s, Crossmen vets from the early 90s, etc.  I never hear them complain about how much DCI sucks these days.  In fact, I love talking to them about their experiences in DCI back in the day.  I have so much admiration for them.  And trust me when I say that today's kids are busting their keesters harder than ever, the shows are completely amazing, and you should have nothing but admiration for them.  Complaining about their shows will only hurt them and take away their credibility.  Please understand that.  Somebody who knows relatively little about DCI might read some of the garbage on this forum and then never support the activity.  That hurts the kids.

If I ever decide I don't like DCI shows anymore (GOD I hope that never happens), I will NOT be on a mission to spread my negativity to others and try to get people to stop going to shows.  That's not fair to other people.  I marched DCI and enjoyed my 15 minutes of fame.  Now it is other people's turn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your post seems very emotional and I am sure you are writing from the heart...but saying that 99% of the generational riff comes from the older crowd is absolutlely ridiculous...I have read blatantly disrespectful posts by many a young drum corps fan or member and that is the only reason I have decided to voice my opinion. I was absent from the activity for over 20 years and it seemed that the posts I was reading, not only on DCP, but on other forums as well were arrogant, disrespectful, and full of half truths and generalizations. You are not preaching to senile old folks who are living in the past...there is much from the past that is valuable in drum corps today, and much of todays drum corps is acceptable and enjoyable as well.....but I cannot help but notice your lack of understanding as to how many drum corps veterans feel,...and as far as hurting the kids, I doubt you can muster up one kid in DCI today that has been affected by even the most negative post on DCP.....if there are indeed any of the "hurt kids"out there you speak of , I would much prefer to hear there take on the subject matter...Having raised three grown men, I can almost guarantee that this type of forum is more a source of entertainment for the "kids" than a thorn in there side or source of discouragement.....what is wrong with venting,...I thought thats what forums were all about.....besides negativity (IMO) is more subjective than objective B)

[felixh]

This debate rages on.  Lete me put it this way:

I do not feel it is right to tell anyone to go or stay, whether it be DCI or DCP.  The fact is that those are decisions for each individual to make.  But in support of the original poster, I, too, get very tired of the negativity.  We all complain from time to time, so I understand that.  But some on this board complain all the time.  It's never ending.  I realize people have the right to complain, just as I have the right to complain about their complaining.  It's a cycle that can go on endlessly.  It's called arguing, debating, and it can be a good thing.  But I have to wonder at what point do those people, who can never find happiness in DCI, decide enough is enough. 

We all have the right to voice our opinion, but at some point if we are that pro-active about what we want, and against the system (whatever that may be) then we have to voice those concerns and take action in a manner that is conducive to change.  The constant griping on this board will honestly not change much, but it does carry the possibility of upsetting those who happen to enjoy and love drum corps the way it is (count me in on that).  I love this activity, and like many of you, I have donated tons of money, purchased CD, DVDs, T Shirts, you name it, and I have given my time.  So sure, we have the right to complain, to disagree from time to time, and to propose change, but ultimately if this is what we want then there are better channels and methods of making those positive changes.  Just complaining ALL THE TIME for the sake of complaining is not going to get it done.  And some of you complain, and complain, and complain.  Nothing makes you happy, everything is a conspiracy, DCI judging is fixed, corps are slotted...wow, it is just amazing the stuff you can read on here.  Perhaps that is why I like DCP so much, yet what I really enjoy is discussing corps from a positive perspective.  I enjoy writing reviews.  I enjoy discussing problems in the activity with those who wish to come up with constructive fixes, but what I absolutely HATE, are those that do nothing but complain.  I guess that is just me.

So it's not a matter of saying those people should go, but for me it's more a matter of what is keeping you people here?  Is your life healthy and happy when you are writing your book of complaints on a daily basis?  Are you making any dent in the drum and bugle corps universe?  I love how many of you have started your petitions when you have not been happy with certain things.  That's the way to do it. Often those things have been discussed in a professional manner.  But the truth is that some on here never, ever, seem to be happy...and they bring their unhappiness to everyone else.  Right or wrong, it simply becomes difficult to take at times.

Jonathan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because you disagree or have a dissenting opinion, or just plain don't appreciate the direction drum corps seems to be heading....how does that equate to unhappiness....some of us,...I'll speak for myself, have both family and careers which we put first....get real!