Marking Horns for tuning.....anyone know how?

[luvhorns]

I am getting ready to mark some G Bugles for tuning. I have seen it done, but I need to know the technique and process.....can anyone help me?

Thanks

Ben

[socalcontra]

In a fairly dry room with good acoustics, bring the following:

1) A good tuner-digital, but in BD they used to use a good 'ol strobotuner

2) A micrometer-need one with good tips on either end to get an acurate measurement between the slides (or, is it calipers-I can never get those two straight)

3) A good, consistant horn player who does not change in their ability to make a consistant pitch- for each section of horns

4) A ledger type book with numerous pages

5) Pencil

6) A hand-held barometer to measure the weight of the air (really, even in the room they first are tuned in just to be consistant-you'll see later)

7) A thermometer

7) A good brand of fingernail polish-a nice blue or pale green-nothing too flashy

Ok, after getting ALL the same horns together (if you are lucky enough to have a set of one brand of horns) you'll write down each of the horn's serial numbers and perhaps the case number to make your job easier the next time. Then, you'll set them (the horns) all out and the player should use the same mouthpiece for each horn (obviously because you'll have only one player doing the blowing in the horns). The person should hold the instrument correctly in the same position as if they were playing it on the field. IF they can do it seated, great-if not, they stand. Write the date, take a reading of the temperature in the room and then measure the barometric pressure in the room (not terribly crucial, but it's necessary once you go outside and do this in different locations you play in the first year you set all the marks. Each horn should be then played with all slides in and the tuner on-hopefully automatic. Adjust the open interval of the horn (use C-G-C) and after "tuning" the horn, measure the difference between the outer slide and the tuning slide (the area you see that's brass). Write down the measurement of the distance in the book for that horn. Once you have done that, "mark" the horn with the fingernail polish where the horn is "in tune" now (unfinished brass/plated brass-ie, silver). You'll do this for every horn you tune in that range. If you do other sections, make sure to get a player from each that is "consistant" in tone production. Now the fun part, you'll want to take readings wherever you play on a general basis and check the horns to see where they play from the orginal mark. The air temperature and barometric pressure has a lot to do with how each horn will be adjusted to stay "in tune". THE BOOK, as it is called in BD, has measurements from a TON of places in the US (and probably elsewhere). Given the tendency of brass instruments to need adjustments, you'll want to recalibrate the horns to where the mark was and now is. That mark will change as the temperature and the barometric pressure changes. You need to write down those changes in THE BOOK so that you'll have an idea where the horn actually plays in tune in different circumstances. The real trick is teaching EVERY kid in the hornline to play right down the center of the horn and make adjustments on notes that are traditionally out of tune. Make good use of the slip-slides on the horn to make adjustments on notes. IF you do this, in theory, the horns "play in tune" and so will the players-as long as they have good technique in playing the horns. If they have terrible tone production and cannot be consistant in their playing, this could be all for naught. You may have to resort to tuning each horn individually with a tuner before each show. I was fortunate to have great instructors with great ears-Jack and Wayne (as well as Dave Carico and Jim McFarland) could/can tell rather well where a horn's pitch is at and where it needs to be. You'll get good at this in 5-10 years (or less if you are lucky). I may have left out some details, but I think that'll get you started. I'm sure others can amend this post for things I may have left out (hey, it's been a while since I've seen/done this, ok?). :) If all else fails, call Wayne Downey or John Meehan (Jack's son who's on staff in BD). I'm sure they could give you more info on this deal.

[MUSICandCHARACTER]

I know this is done ... but I have to ask why? Even with the same mouthpieces and horns, etc., a different player will come along with a different embouchure and the tuning will be off.

For example, a very good friend of mine plays a Bach 36 trombone. He has to pull the slide out almost as far as it can go to get it in tune. I play the same horn and mouthpiece, and I pull the slide about an inch.

He also has a Kanstul 1555 bone. He only pulls it out about a inch or two. That is about where I would play it.

So many variables from person to person. The Cavies, on their video, suggest that tuning to a meter is almost useless (they don't use those words). Instead, listen, listen, listen and adjust.

I direct the local community band. My predecessor tuned everyone to a meter. The band would be out of tune about 25 minutes later. I run them through some Bach Chorales and have them LISTEN and adjust instead. Wow, the band plays in tune and stays in tune.

No reliance on tuning meters - they use their ears.

Different opinion I guess -- but I am not Wayne Downey.

Jim

[DCM]

this method of tuning the horns helps to teach the Player to play in tune. All players are different..... So are most horns, but the horns( usually when BD did this the horns were close to bing made in successive order and therefore there was not much difference horn to horn) stay the same......relative.

So by marking the horns, this is where the horns plays in tune at certain temperatures, and helps to force ( i hate that word) players to play in tune.

This gives the player room to adjust in different temperatures either way on their slide. The horns are in tune, now it's up to the player to play it in tune. Of course having good ears is also a pre requisite

Edited August 23, 2005 by DCM

[PR_ducky]

OK, I remember we did this in regiment in the late 80s. The brass staff took a file and lightly marked the tuning slides at 1/8" intervals. Was interesting, but as a realistic practice, I seem to recall it never really panned out, still went horn to horn in the arc with a tuner before every show.

[drewbugler]

Crossmen experimented with this in 2002. I'm not sure if they still use the tuning system, as hands changed with the brass team since then. We had the fortune of working out many of the kinks by speaking with Cadet brass staff folks, and talkin with many of the BD staffers on the subject as well.

I think this tuning system works best when dealing with a temperature change at the gate. A quick run through the tuning chart will adjust the tuning slides faster than imaginable!

[Guest mafields627]

When you pull the slides to a specific mark according to the book, do you leave them or fine tune it from there? It seems like a great way to get everybody "close" and then go from there.

[socalcontra]

There are variances in the mouthpieces once the horns have been tuned. On the contras we used Miraphone C3 and C4's when I marched my first year,then we switch to Conn Hellenberg mouthpieces. I beleve now the contras used Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces, but I could be wrong. I do know that the sops used a 1 1/2 or a 3 Bach mouthpiece. Any of the other sections I'd have to think about it hard-maybe the euphs used a schilke 48 or something larger (?). Anyway, you'll need to make up the variance of tone production with the mouthpiece. BTW, I really am against the "filing" concept on horns. Marks change so much, that's why BD used fingernail polish rather than gouge the horn slide with marks. Also, air CAN escape (albeit, a slight bit) and cause compression problems in the slide when it is filed down (let alone causing structual damage to that slide). As far as I knew, Cadets always tuned each person individually and I don't think that's hurt their scores all that much. Now that Gino is there you'll have to ask him what he does-I don't know whether he uses the BD system, the tuner system or a combination of the two. Crossmen might have used the BD system because Jack Meehan taught there for a few years after leaving BD. The BD system might have been passed down to other instructors in the Crossmen after he left. Remember, this system is great once you have TRAINED brass players. I doubt very seriously I would tune my students in middle school this way. Maturity of tone production and support, as well as a good ear to adjust pitch with your lips or your slip slide is a big part of using this tuning system. I can understand the skepticism because it's a lot of work and it really goes against what we're taught as brass players from our teachers-but obviously it works because BD has had the most horn trophies in DCI since they started winning them in '76 (ties included). Kind of hard to fault a system with that much success. :)

[liebot]

I watched Cadets warm-up this year and i believe they used the notch system. they had a member from each section come up and get in tune and then would adjust the rest of the members relative to that.

[Galen]

I know this is done ... but I have to ask why?  Even with the same mouthpieces and horns, etc., a different player will come along with a different embouchure and the tuning will be off.

I marched in a corps that used this method, and one thing I can say is that besides giving a good base standard for tuning a hornline, the marking system is also supposed to take relative humidity into account.