SkyRyder_FMM Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) OK. I complied a list of the number of competing units in each division for every year that DCI has been in existence. For the sake of being able to easily present the info, please note the following: - Open Class (72 to 91) and Div I (92 to 05) are shown in the Div I column - Class A (75 to 91), Class A-60 (85 to 91), All Girl (75 to 79 and 81 to 82), Div II and III (92 to 05) are combined into a single column labeled Div II/III. Given the changes in the Divisions over the years and for the sake of space (i.e., being able to clearly present the info here), these Divisions had to be combined - To arrive at the Div I number of units, I took the total number of units that competed in Div I, and backed out corps from Div II/III that moved up to compete in Div I. While I fully acknowledge there are always units that do not ultimately compete at Championships, the trends are interesting. This will also help to validate or refute several of the comments posted here about the number of units, number of units by division, etc. that have been posted in this tread. The following is the summary: Div I Div II/III Total Div II/III to Compete in Div I 1972 Whitewater, WI 39 0 39 N/A 1973 Whitewater, WI 48 0 48 N/A 1974 Ithica, NY 57 0 57 N/A 1975 Philadelphia, PA 46 29 75 0 1976 Philadelphia, PA 47 33 80 0 1977 Denver, CO 45 33 78 0 1978 Denver, CO 43 24 67 0 1979 Birmingham, AL 43 23 66 0 1980 Birmingham, AL 44 21 65 0 1981 Montreal, QUE 49 49 98 0 1982 Montreal, QUE 48 50 98 0 1983 Miami, FL 41 10 51 10 1984 Atlanta, GA 43 25 68 8 1985 Madison, WI 34 34 68 7 1986 Madison, WI 29 33 62 7 1987 Madison, WI 29 36 65 7 1988 Kansas City, MO 25 40 65 7 1989 Kansas City, MO 24 35 59 7 1990 Buffalo, NY 26 42 68 7 1991 Dallas, TX 24 33 57 5 1992 Madison, WI 22 47 69 5 1993 Jackson, MS 24 36 60 5 1994 Boston, MA 19 54 73 5 1995 Buffalo, NY 18 54 72 5 1996 Orlando, FL 20 44 64 5 1997 Orlando, FL 21 42 63 5 1998 Orlando, FL 19 37 56 5 1999 Madison, WI 21 43 64 5 2000 Washington, DC 19 46 65 5 2001 Buffalo, NY 18 38 56 5 2002 Madison, WI 19 40 59 3 2003 Orlando, FL 23 33 56 0 2004 Denver, CO 24 28 52 0 2005 Foxboro, MA 24 29 53 0 edited for table format Edited March 29, 2006 by SkyRyder_FMM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ageout90 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Is it really about the "quantity" of the corps or the "quality" that we now see on the field in DCI. Sure, there were more corps back in the day...but they did not travel, eat, perform, and plan the way the remaining DCI corps do. (I'll even include DCA on this one) Thinking back (as a 37yr old)...do we really want kids to travel the way we did. Or for that matter...rehearse the way we did? Just take a moment to look at the creativity and performance level of div II & III much less the open class 10-17. We are in a golden age of the activity right now. Ticket sales, crowds, accessability to the public (internet, ESPN 2, more classrooms and college campus support us now more than ever) At one time Drum Corps was a verboten subject in most schools, and with many band directors. Now there is more of a trust that their students will be treated well, and will actually contribute back to their band programs when they return. Now...if we could have 400+ corps of high quality...then I say sure lets go for it. But, this is fiscally, and probably educationally impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 The author himself even admitted that these corps were not all competitive "in DCI". For the sake of accuracy, I'm not sure that Mr. Tolzman was the actual author of the graph. He may have complied the numbers, but I'm not sure he was the person who put the graph together. Hopefully, he'll respond and clear up this particular confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyRyder_FMM Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 OK. I complied a list of the number of competing units in each division for every year that DCI has been in existence. For the sake of being able to easily present the info, please note the following:- Open Class (72 to 91) and Div I (92 to 05) are shown in the Div I column - Class A (75 to 91), Class A-60 (85 to 91), All Girl (75 to 79 and 81 to 82), Div II and III (92 to 05) are combined into a single column labeled Div II/III. Given the changes in the Divisions over the years and for the sake of space (i.e., being able to clearly present the info here), these Divisions had to be combined - To arrive at the Div I number of units, I took the total number of units that competed in Div I, and backed out corps from Div II/III that moved up to compete in Div I. While I fully acknowledge there are always units that do not ultimately compete at Championships, the trends are interesting. This will also help to validate or refute several of the comments posted here about the number of units, number of units by division, etc. that have been posted in this tread. The following is the summary: Div I Div II/III Total Div II/III to Compete in Div I 1972 Whitewater, WI 39 0 39 N/A 1973 Whitewater, WI 48 0 48 N/A 1974 Ithica, NY 57 0 57 N/A 1975 Philadelphia, PA 46 29 75 0 1976 Philadelphia, PA 47 33 80 0 1977 Denver, CO 45 33 78 0 1978 Denver, CO 43 24 67 0 1979 Birmingham, AL 43 23 66 0 1980 Birmingham, AL 44 21 65 0 1981 Montreal, QUE 49 49 98 0 1982 Montreal, QUE 48 50 98 0 1983 Miami, FL 41 10 51 10 1984 Atlanta, GA 43 25 68 8 1985 Madison, WI 34 34 68 7 1986 Madison, WI 29 33 62 7 1987 Madison, WI 29 36 65 7 1988 Kansas City, MO 25 40 65 7 1989 Kansas City, MO 24 35 59 7 1990 Buffalo, NY 26 42 68 7 1991 Dallas, TX 24 33 57 5 1992 Madison, WI 22 47 69 5 1993 Jackson, MS 24 36 60 5 1994 Boston, MA 19 54 73 5 1995 Buffalo, NY 18 54 72 5 1996 Orlando, FL 20 44 64 5 1997 Orlando, FL 21 42 63 5 1998 Orlando, FL 19 37 56 5 1999 Madison, WI 21 43 64 5 2000 Washington, DC 19 46 65 5 2001 Buffalo, NY 18 38 56 5 2002 Madison, WI 19 40 59 3 2003 Orlando, FL 23 33 56 0 2004 Denver, CO 24 28 52 0 2005 Foxboro, MA 24 29 53 0 edited for table format Sorry - for the life of me, I can't get this to accept my table format so it's more readable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Since when is anyone claiming it is??Here's a question nobody has answered yet: Of the 480 or so corps in 1972, how many competed at a DCI event? Or how many DCI events were there in 1972? Took a few years until DCI became the Junior corps circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) If the intention of the author is NOT to implicate DCI in the decline of corps, then why not throw out the 1972 starting point and post a graph that goes back to the beginning of recorded drum corps history and include ALL corps (junior, senior, alumni, parade, standstill, military, whatever), regardless of their competitive status? As someone who is trying to do that in the Senior corps world all I can say is "Rotsa Ruck"..... Besides DCA and DCI keeping tabs on their own circuit most records are found in back issues of DC newspapers and programs sitting in peoples attics. There are a few sites on line (srcorps, corpsreps, dbcna, eriethunderbirds, etc) that have a lot of info but a <bleep> of a lot of THAT depends on people like us feeding them data (been there, done that). Crap.... according to "History of Drum Corps" (another great reference) the American Legion came #### close to throwing out all of the records and pictures from their National Shows (ca. 1921-1980). This massive of amount of data was saved only because Bob Zinko(sp?) pushed like Hades to save it. My guess is 1972 was picked because it was a "Historic" year for Jr corps...... Edited March 29, 2006 by JimF-xWSMBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdewine Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 torn8o- How is the loss of 133 corps, of any kind, over a three year period, NOT relevant? I have no doubt there were many contributing factors. I would have hoped that DCI replacing the VFW / AL / CYO / U.S. Open / World Open / etc. would have been able to, in their infinite wisdom, foresee and prevent, the ultimate demise of so very many great drum corps. Here's just one...the Auburn Purple Lancers. (and no, I wasn't a Lancer. I competed against them.) I think DCI has SOME ownership in the fact that we have far fewer corps NOW, than we did before the inception of DCI. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torn8o Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 OK. I complied a list of the number of competing units in each division for every year that DCI has been in existence. For the sake of being able to easily present the info, please note the following:- Open Class (72 to 91) and Div I (92 to 05) are shown in the Div I column - Class A (75 to 91), Class A-60 (85 to 91), All Girl (75 to 79 and 81 to 82), Div II and III (92 to 05) are combined into a single column labeled Div II/III. Given the changes in the Divisions over the years and for the sake of space (i.e., being able to clearly present the info here), these Divisions had to be combined - To arrive at the Div I number of units, I took the total number of units that competed in Div I, and backed out corps from Div II/III that moved up to compete in Div I. While I fully acknowledge there are always units that do not ultimately compete at Championships, the trends are interesting. This will also help to validate or refute several of the comments posted here about the number of units, number of units by division, etc. that have been posted in this tread. The following is the summary: Div I Div II/III Total Div II/III to Compete in Div I 1972 Whitewater, WI 39 0 39 N/A 1973 Whitewater, WI 48 0 48 N/A 1974 Ithica, NY 57 0 57 N/A 1975 Philadelphia, PA 46 29 75 0 1976 Philadelphia, PA 47 33 80 0 1977 Denver, CO 45 33 78 0 1978 Denver, CO 43 24 67 0 1979 Birmingham, AL 43 23 66 0 1980 Birmingham, AL 44 21 65 0 1981 Montreal, QUE 49 49 98 0 1982 Montreal, QUE 48 50 98 0 1983 Miami, FL 41 10 51 10 1984 Atlanta, GA 43 25 68 8 1985 Madison, WI 34 34 68 7 1986 Madison, WI 29 33 62 7 1987 Madison, WI 29 36 65 7 1988 Kansas City, MO 25 40 65 7 1989 Kansas City, MO 24 35 59 7 1990 Buffalo, NY 26 42 68 7 1991 Dallas, TX 24 33 57 5 1992 Madison, WI 22 47 69 5 1993 Jackson, MS 24 36 60 5 1994 Boston, MA 19 54 73 5 1995 Buffalo, NY 18 54 72 5 1996 Orlando, FL 20 44 64 5 1997 Orlando, FL 21 42 63 5 1998 Orlando, FL 19 37 56 5 1999 Madison, WI 21 43 64 5 2000 Washington, DC 19 46 65 5 2001 Buffalo, NY 18 38 56 5 2002 Madison, WI 19 40 59 3 2003 Orlando, FL 23 33 56 0 2004 Denver, CO 24 28 52 0 2005 Foxboro, MA 24 29 53 0 edited for table format Thank you for doing that. Now, KEY in on the number of Division I corps from 1995 - 2005 and you will see the point that I have been harping on. THAT is where the activity is growing and personally is where it is MOST important because it's where DCI membership happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburstall Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 If it's such an irrelevant question, then why begin the graph in the year 1972?? In other words, what EXACTLY is the author of this graph trying to say? Is it just that there are fewer corps today than there were in 1972? Well, DUH. Since 1972 was chosen as the starting point, and 1972 was the year DCI was founded, doesn't it seem that the author is seeking to explicitly implicate that DCI is the main reason for this decline in numbers? If so, then why include corps in the total who didn't participate in DCI competition?? Unless we are now seeking to blame DCI for corps folding who didn't even compete in DCI. If the intention of the author is NOT to implicate DCI in the decline of corps, then why not throw out the 1972 starting point and post a graph that goes back to the beginning of recorded drum corps history and include ALL corps (junior, senior, alumni, parade, standstill, military, whatever), regardless of their competitive status? I have always had a problem with this graph because it doesn't really tell me anything. Because you are DEMANDING it. Corps in '72 didn't suddenly decide to go to DCI for fear of it being a flash-in-the-pan. Corps are corps, doesn't matter where they marched. I'm certain if he went farther back then '72 you'd find the numbers decreasing then. '72 was used as a STARTING POINT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torn8o Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) torn8o- How is the loss of 133 corps, of any kind, over a three year period, NOT relevant? You don't get my point....it has to FIRST be proven that this REALLY IS what happened and in the context of "DCI corps" (which is what the context of the question included) - BEFORE the question ITSELF is even relevant. See..You are just blindly believing that "133 DCI corps folded over a 3 year period". I am not. I want proof. Until we have proof, the question YOU ASKED about "how and why it happened" cannot even be asked as a fair AND RELEVANT question yet. It's like me hearing a rumor that "you beat on your spouse" without proof and then asking the question "why do you beat on your spouse"? I can't ask that question until I first get an answer as to whether it's TRUE or not. And...IF (I only said "if) the table that "SkyRyder" posted is correct, the 133 "loss" figure IS false. Edited March 29, 2006 by torn8o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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